Confucius noted that “silence is a true friend who never betrays.” To many creators, silence takes on supreme importance. Without silence, sound has no relevance. Silence is more than just the absence of organized sound, it is something to be given reverence. This is certainly the case for multi-instrumentalist Roscoe Mitchell. Throughout several prior interviews, Mr. Mitchell has described silence as something “perfect” that should be interrupted. Fittingly enough, one of the NEA Jazz Master’s great groups takes its name by reference to silence. The SPACE trio – currently consisting of Mitchell, Thomas Buckner, and Scott Robinson – will perform at Roulette on March 6, 2025. The event is part of the thirty-fifth season of Interpretations, a New York-based concert series that examines the relationships between contemporary composers and those who interpret their art. In some cases, as with SPACE, the subject artist and the interpreter are one and the same. 

Roscoe Mitchell has been at the battlefront for expanding concepts of modern music for the last six decades. After studying with Muhal Richard Abrams in the early 1960s, he became one of the first members of the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians (AACM) in 1965. His debut, Sound (Delmark, 1966), became the first album out of that now venerated institution. Ahead of its time, and even still so, Sound took a broad perspective of the sonic environment in which the master artists found themselves. In large part, this comes from the direction given to each instrumentalist to create their solo around the relationship between sound and silence, not traditional Western music building blocks like melody or rhythm. As a result, “unorthodox devices” like bicycle horns and toys were recognized as potential new voices worthy of exploration. Already blurred walls between the stylistic boundaries of genre were discarded in favor of a holistic sound that adopted influences from a wide range of sonic ideas. The core of the Sound group – Mitchell, Malachi Favors, and Lester Bowie – would gradually turn into the Roscoe Mitchell Art Ensemble. Two years later, it became known as the now iconic Art Ensemble of Chicago. 

As Mitchell continued creating and evolving over the ensuing decades, an interest in the interrelationship between sound and silence remained. He even named his ensemble after those elements, with one being named “Sound” and another “SPACE.” The latter was a trio Mitchell formed in 1979 with baritone vocalist Thomas Buckner and rare woodwind specialist Gerald Oshita. SPACE’s first record, New Music for Woodwinds and Voice (Arch, 1984) was ahead of its time in combining improvisation and composition, jazz and Western classical music, and standard and non-standard instrumentation. Unfortunately, Oshita died in 1992 at the young age of fifty. 

But the story of SPACE continues. Twenty-five years after Oshita’s passing, Mitchell and Buckner formed a new version of the SPACE trio with multi-instrumentalist Scott Robinson. As Mitchell makes clear in our conversation, this version of SPACE that has performed on and off over the last eight years is not the same as the original because the trajectory of the band is so dependent on its members. Their original compositions and improvisations are similarly uniquely tied to the artists on stage. However, the shared interest of both trios in the relationship between sound and silence remains. So does, as evident throughout this conversation, Roscoe Mitchell’s forward focus and creative boldness. This conversation has been edited for clarity.

PostGenre: You have been quoted a few times as saying that silence is perfect and when you interrupt silence, you strive to be at the same level as silence. How do you know when you are playing that you are reaching that same level of perfection instead of filling space and taking away from perfection?

Roscoe Mitchell: Well, I mean, have you ever gone and sat in a room that’s totally silent? 

PG: Yeah, yeah. 

RM: Yeah, well, that’s what it is. It’s perfect, you know? So if you want to interrupt it when you do something, it has to at least be on that level. 

PG: Does the perception that the notes you play have to be on that level particularly daunting when it comes to composing and creating? 

RM: That’s it. [It] has to be followed. 

PG: Playing with other people, you have no control over how other musicians will approach sound or treat silence. Does that make collaboration difficult?

RM: The people that I play with, I mean, they understand the concept. 

PG: [Is it] something you discuss with them or [do] you just know [that] from working with them? 

RM: Well, I mean, yes, both those solutions. 

PG: The original version of SPACE was formed in 1979. What first led to that group coming together? 

RM: Well, let’s see. I was doing the workshop at, you know, Karl Berger?

PG: Yeah.

RM: I was doing a workshop there at [his] Creative Music Studios [] where I was the professor in residency for a month. I had invited four composers to be a part of it and Gerald Oshita was one of them. It just so happened that Thomas Buckner was, at that time, working with Gerald. They had a whole bunch of stuff. Gerald Oshita was an amazing musician. So is Tom Buckner. So, it was an easy step into that world for me.  And if you get some of the records during that period, you’ll see that. Do you have any of the recordings? 

PG: Yeah, they are fantastic. I think the last one I listened to was off of Scott Robinson’s label, ScienSonic [Laboratories]. It was the first time [the trio] ever played together. [Soundscape 1979 (ScienSonic, 2017)].

RM:  Yeah, you mean the earlier one? 

PG: Yes. But the first record SPACE released was New Music for Woodwinds and Voice. [The record] blurred composition and improvisation, jazz and concert music, standard and non-standard instrumentation. Combining those types of different ideas is fairly commonplace now but perhaps less so then. Were you actively setting out to break down those barriers or did it all just come from what you were hearing? 

RM: Yeah. I deal with the word “music”, you know? [If you think in ways] other than that, you’re not doing all of your work. 

PG: In terms of the improvisation element, some musicians see it as distinctly separate from composition and others see them as the same thing. Do you see a big difference between composition and improvisation? 

RM: No. I mean, [improvisation] is creating music in real time, you know? If you and I are improvising, one of my rules is “don’t follow.” You have to be able to create composition in real time which is like if you have your part written out in terms of knowing how things are going to work. 

One example in my mind, clearly, of who did it masterfully, is Tani Tabbal. I had a set of cards that I used to bring this conversation. Everybody had six cards, but I gave them the ability to move those cards around in any kind of way and by overlapping them and so on and so forth. What I had decided on is that if I can figure out a way to keep the student in the composition longer, then I would be successful and what would happen because concentration works well. The longer you can maintain it, the better. And it requires actually doing it and listening because what [improvisation] is. It’s people creating music in real time. So that’s the requirement for that. 

PG:  As far as [pre-written] compositions, are you using completely new things for this new version of SPACE or are you revisiting some of the original pieces as well?

RM: No. I mean why should I do that? This is a perfect system. 

PG: So, what inspired you to re-form [SPACE] after Gerald passed, adding Scott to the group? 

RM: Well, I mean, if you know that music, you know that Gerald Oshita was an outstanding musician. Folks had home instruments that they loaned him to play. He had the Conn-o-sax and the sarrusophone. You should be able to get that information from the recording. That group covered improvising and written material. 

PG: But what made you decide, in 2017, to not leave the concept for this group in the past now that Gerald is no longer here, and to instead keep going with it but with Scott instead?

RM: Well, I mean, hey, look, they are two different people. I have a whole history with Scott Robinson, you know?  If you were there, I would . have another version for you and what you would be able to do. I think that everybody’s different. That’s the main thing that we have going for ourselves, if you know how to tap into it. 

PG: But one commonality is that Thomas Buckner is in both versions of the group. Do you feel the way you communicate with him is the same across both versions? 

RM: I just said everyone’s different! I realize that. I know that and it’s one of our main suits that we’re strong at. 

PG: Both versions do use the instrumentation of two saxophones and baritone vocals. What interested you in the sound that they can create together? 

RM: Look, I play several different instruments!

PG: Right. Of course.

RM: I don’t know how to say this anymore. Not only do I play all the woodwinds, I play the early music instruments. The transverse flute. And I play that music and so on. So I don’t leave anything untouched. 

PG: How do you determine which instrument you want to play at any given moment? Is it entirely tied to what you are hearing?

RM: It’s not a game! It’s not a guessing game with me!

PG: I didn’t say it was. I was just curious what inspires you.

RM:  What inspires me? I inspire my own self. I said that already. 

PG: The first time that this version of SPACE with Scott Robinson performed together was at Roulette. Is there something special about that as a space for this group? 

RM: No. I don’t know what that question is about that you’re asking me. We got together and rehearsed. We had our work theories and stuff, you know? 

PG: As far as theories on art, you create not only music but also visual art and poetry. Do you see these as one thing or are they different from one another? 

RM: Of course. Look, I’m going to be done with this interview if you ask me something like that. 

PG: OK. I’m just trying to understand. 

RM: What are you trying to understand? Explain to me what you’re trying to understand. 

PG: I’m trying to understand your creative process and how you think. 

RM: Oh, you can’t do that. I’m outthinking you by metes and bounds. I tried to break it down into the simplest thing. We are all different. So you tap into that information for yourself and I tap into that information for myself and then it’s functioning normally. 

PG: [In] other interviews you spoke about how you basically try to fit into nature with sound. How do you do that? 

RM: Well, it’s always perfect. You have to accept that. In France, I had a friend who was an architect. He would give me the keys to different places when I wanted to get out of Paris and then I would go there for a weekend or something. I think I still have this take where I’m out in the country there and you hear cars in the background. You hear them coming, starting at one point and then getting louder and louder, and then the sound going down. I’ve got so much material. 

PG: Do you feel like the way you think about music or approach music or what draws you to music has changed over time?

RM: Look, I’m not going to even answer that question. 

PG: I’m sorry. To ask you about one more historical thing, however, next year, Sound (Demark, 1966) turns sixty years old. Any thoughts on that recording? 

RM: Well, I’m not going back to things. I don’t need to. I don’t need to do that. It’s already been done.

SPACE with Roscoe Mitchell, Thomas Buckner, and Scott Robinson will be performing with Robert Dick at Roulette Intermedium on March 6, 2025 as part of the Interpretations Series. More information can be found on Roulette’s website. It will also be livestreamed on Youtube.