{"id":10574,"date":"2025-06-04T01:53:00","date_gmt":"2025-06-04T06:53:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/?p=10574"},"modified":"2025-06-03T21:53:56","modified_gmt":"2025-06-04T02:53:56","slug":"perelman-shipp-armageddon-flower-ii","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/perelman-shipp-armageddon-flower-ii\/","title":{"rendered":"Giving Up Control: A Conversation with Ivo Perelman and Matthew Shipp on \u2018Armageddon Flower\u2019 (Part Two)"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>We continue our conversation with Ivo Perelman and Matthew Shipp on \u2018Armageddon Flower\u2019 (TAO Forms, 2025). You can <a href=\"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/perelman-shipp-armageddon-flower-i\/\">read Part One here.<\/a> <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_jzsg2n04-hY\"><div id=\"lyte_jzsg2n04-hY\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/jzsg2n04-hY\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/jzsg2n04-hY\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/jzsg2n04-hY\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>PostGenre: As far as focusing on the heart, does that go back to getting out of the way, too? Obviously, you need mental and technical skills to be able to make the music you make. But you are also trying not to over-rationalize everything.&nbsp;<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Matthew Shipp: OK. Bruce Lee is one of my idols. I think he&#8217;s one of the great simple philosophers because everything he says has a directness and simplicity to it. Someone asked him once what his technical goals were within martial arts, and his response was, \u201cTo have no technique.\u201d I think that is one of the greatest quotes ever. He&#8217;s referring to a level you can get to only through hours and hours of practice. It takes that much work to let yourself really be able to give yourself over to unconscious, subconscious primacy. But he\u2019s also speaking of a level of trust where you&#8217;re at one with the event. In a fight, the whole dance of the two fighters is choreographing itself, so actually, he&#8217;s not even fighting there. He&#8217;s not even throwing the punch. He\u2019s floating in a unified, universal hole with the whole event. And there&#8217;s even no separation between him and his so-called opponent. So, when he said his technical goal was to have no technique, he meant when you really give yourself over to the universal, the universe, or universal processes to do stuff through you. The paradox of it all is it takes years of practice to have the narrow construct to be able to throw it all out.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_90IKBUzva_o\"><div id=\"lyte_90IKBUzva_o\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/90IKBUzva_o\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/90IKBUzva_o\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/90IKBUzva_o\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>PG: So, is that ability to throw it out part of what makes the music sound so fresh? You have both worked with not only each other but also the other two members of the String Trio in so many different configurations over the years. Granted, part of it is probably just working with William Parker but even after all the years together, the music never sounds routine or repetitive.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>Ivo Perelman:&nbsp; It\u2019s because what we do is endosymbiosis. I love biology, so I use a lot of terms that biologists use. Endosymbiosis means that it&#8217;s more than just an interaction between us. It\u2019s a multiple four-way symbiosis where one changes another, and both end up changed. That&#8217;s how cells developed over billions of years. With endosymbiosis, we are moving away from comfort zones and from comfortable zones at all times. And that makes this band very unique and special. We hate to get into things we have heard before, or that feel familiar.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We\u2019ve never spoken about it, but I&#8217;m sure William would agree with me. I know for sure that Matthew hates sounding familiar. So that&#8217;s why we always always sound different. Just as every day is different. Every minute is different from the previous minute. We&#8217;re trying to just be truthful and recreate what life is about; a constant flux, a constant change.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>MS: William Parker is a vibrational musician, meaning he&#8217;s studied bass and everything, but he&#8217;s tapping into something almost pre-African. He\u2019s tapped into something that goes back so far and could even be unearthly. And if he&#8217;s playing off the grid as far as any kind of academic ways of teaching music, and if it&#8217;s a real subconscious process, the subconscious process is going to renew itself constantly. Every night, you have different results. There may be patterns. But different things keep coming together and dissipating and reconfiguring in different ways. And if you have a bunch of individuals that both naturally can relate to each other, and that&#8217;s all happening in all of their playing, then the reconfiguration of the group sound is going to be very different from CD to CD. So, I think there is a natural reconfiguration that goes on between us, all of us.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I will say it has been a marvelous thing in my life to have worked with William Parker for all these years. He&#8217;s such a unique figure in the world. To have been able to have a friendship and musical relationship with him that&#8217;s lasted from the time I moved to New York &#8211; I met him in \u201983 or \u201984 &#8211; to now has been more than a dream come true.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_edKlzy_jHGY\"><div id=\"lyte_edKlzy_jHGY\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/edKlzy_jHGY\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/edKlzy_jHGY\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/edKlzy_jHGY\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>As for Mat Maneri, he grew up in a musical family where his father was a composer. His father was also an improviser, and that mode of being was brought to him at a very young age where it had a chance to really inculcate itself in him and take on a life of his own. He grew up in a family where they played [Arnold] Schoenberg and [John] Coltrane for breakfast. I met Mat when he was a teenager. He seemed to me at that time to be a complete rebel. When I met him, he looked like a punk.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>And none of the four of us learned jazz academically, per se. In my case, I studied, as a young musician, with Clifford Brown&#8217;s teacher and John Coltrane\u2019s teacher. The way I approach learning jazz was very different from people who go to college and study it. I learned from teachers who taught two of the greatest jazz musicians in the history of the world, and they both had a very intuitive approach to teaching that did not center around things like method books.&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_OAYx-Yz4mts\"><div id=\"lyte_OAYx-Yz4mts\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/OAYx-Yz4mts\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/OAYx-Yz4mts\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/OAYx-Yz4mts\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_xjFMMCstWrk\"><div id=\"lyte_xjFMMCstWrk\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/xjFMMCstWrk\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/xjFMMCstWrk\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/xjFMMCstWrk\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>William studied with Jimmy Garrison, Wilbur Ware, and Richard Davis. Even with that, he is basically his own man. He just got some knowledge, some approaches, and some ways of thinking from all of them. But he was his own man before he even played bass because he used to listen to records and practice playing bass on a broom as a teenager. By doing that, he was coordinating a kinetic connection between the notes he was sharing and hearing in his brain and the instrument. His physical being and his spirit were connecting before he even played bass. It was like he developed a sense of himself playing music as opposed to going to the Berklee School of Music and learning their method.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That\u2019s all to say that the albums and the music change on their own. Again, that&#8217;s the lack of control from our point. There\u2019s a reconfiguration happening on a subconscious level in all our playing and then collectively, when we get together.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_oPIfZKrFSA0\"><div id=\"lyte_oPIfZKrFSA0\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/oPIfZKrFSA0\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/oPIfZKrFSA0\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/oPIfZKrFSA0\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>PG: I think that is all of the questions unless Matthew wanted several<a href=\"https:\/\/www.stereogum.com\/2307537\/jazz-pianist-matthew-shipp-slams-andre-3000s-new-improvisational-piano-ep\/news\/\"> about Andr\u00e9 3000<\/a>. <em>[laughing]<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>MS: [laughing]. I will say that anybody who thinks it&#8217;s cool that he put out an improvised piano album or music album without having done the work is well advised to listen to Armageddon Flower and understand the difference between people who have dedicated their whole lives to the art and craft of doing something like this compared to what seems to me to be a stunt &#8211; or, at least, that is how i perceive what Andr\u00e9 did; I don\u2019t assume to know his actual motivation &#8211; &nbsp;by somebody who has not put in the work. I would hold up the record as a testament to the life and the art. To the craft of people who are presenting a mature product that comes from a whole lifetime of thinking about the questions that are involved with actually creating music in this way. I do think that this record stands out in an unbelievable way and is worthy of everything. I say that egotistically and non-egotistically. It stands out in a way that&#8217;s very important for this time.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>IP: To me, Armageddon Flower was not created for random reasons. At this particular time, Armageddon Flower is not a random name. It&#8217;s a serious name for a serious music that reflects a serious moment in world history. Personally, this recording is a landmark because I feel like there&#8217;s nothing that I should say after it. If I keep recording, it is because I have nothing better to do or just want to enjoy myself. But as far as music material, I\u2019m finished with this album.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>MS: I&#8217;m nearing the end of my recording career, too. I know I&#8217;ve been saying that since 1999. But even my friends are saying they can tell I mean it.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_rN1AGqs_luA\"><div id=\"lyte_rN1AGqs_luA\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/rN1AGqs_luA\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/rN1AGqs_luA\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/rN1AGqs_luA\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>PG: Do you actually think both of you would be able to step away from it, though?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>IP: I could keep recording forever, but what&#8217;s the point? I meant all of what I have done, and it&#8217;s there, recorded. So that&#8217;s it.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>MS: I have two recordings coming out this year and two box sets coming out next year of things that have been sitting around. And then after that, I plan one more record that will be done outside the jazz paradigm and will probably be sold to an art gallery. But after that, yes, I can see myself stepping away. I&#8217;ll be sixty-five at the end of the year. I take up a lot of oxygen in the jazz world. There are many younger players who I think are great And deserve more attention. I don&#8217;t want to keep recording. I&#8217;ve gotten a lot of press over the years and a lot of accolades that many great musicians don&#8217;t feel they received. I don&#8217;t want to keep putting stuff in the marketplace out of a feeling that I haven\u2019t gotten my due yet. At some point, I want to be able to theoretically go up into the ashram like Alice Coltrane did and maybe come out every once in a while to give a concert. But it&#8217;s not like you&#8217;re trying to be relevant within the jazz industry.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I take up a lot of oxygen, and people pay attention to my recordings. At some point, I want to step out of the way because there are some young people who I think really have a lot to say and are not necessarily getting a lot of press at the moment. I know I&#8217;ve had to battle with other people that I feel have taken up too much oxygen. In their case, I didn&#8217;t feel that their work justified the attention they received. Instead, it was mostly from reputation and history. I do feel that Ivo, William Parker, and myself keep growing, and I feel that our work warrants it. But I still don&#8217;t want younger people to be in competition with me for oxygen.&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed-youtube wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"lyte-wrapper fourthree\" style=\"width:420px;max-width:100%;margin:5px;\"><div class=\"lyMe\" id=\"WYL_Z7M8JYUoR5s\"><div id=\"lyte_Z7M8JYUoR5s\" data-src=\"\/\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/Z7M8JYUoR5s\/hqdefault.jpg\" class=\"pL\"><div class=\"tC\"><div class=\"tT\"><\/div><\/div><div class=\"play\"><\/div><div class=\"ctrl\"><div class=\"Lctrl\"><\/div><div class=\"Rctrl\"><\/div><\/div><\/div><noscript><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/Z7M8JYUoR5s\" rel=\"nofollow\"><img data-recalc-dims=\"1\" loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/i.ytimg.com\/vi\/Z7M8JYUoR5s\/0.jpg?resize=420%2C295&#038;ssl=1\" alt=\"YouTube video thumbnail\" width=\"420\" height=\"295\" \/><br \/>Watch this video on YouTube<\/a><\/noscript><\/div><\/div><div class=\"lL\" style=\"max-width:100%;width:420px;margin:5px;\"><\/div><figcaption><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>IP: Also, even if I never stepped into the studio again, I have many albums in the can already. It would probably be a few years after I&#8217;m gone before everything is released.&nbsp; There&#8217;s just not enough time to release it all. So, at some point, there may be many recordings released by me, but they would have been made years earlier.&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>MS:&nbsp; Mainly on your own label, right?&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>IP: Yes. Some of them I recorded for my own label long ago and will keep releasing them. I\u2019ll designate somebody to release them after I&#8217;m gone if it comes to that. But Armageddon Flower is a fundamental album for me in the sense that it was such unbelievable perfection and the way it came about. Also, for the social and historical reasons that I described. I learned a big lesson from this session. Every session teaches you something. This one taught me that every book has a last word on the last page.&nbsp;&nbsp;<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n<p>MS: We as humans are finite even though our spirits are attached to infinity. Theoretically, everything is infinite. With the construct that we are now living in as Ivo Perelman and as Matthew Shipp, there has to be a last chapter of the book. William Blake once said, \u201cIf the doors of perception were cleansed, everything would appear to man as it is, infinite.\u201d Everything connects to everything in the universe. And if infinity is a mathematical concept, then everything could go on forever in a theoretical way. But we&#8217;re not dealing with theory. We&#8217;re dealing with physical matter within this dimension, for which there has to be a last period or a closing of the book at some point.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean the book can only suggest finite ways in people&#8217;s imagination. Every listener is a fresh construct in the universe. Every listener brings a whole new set of images, listening habits, and a listening history. So, every listen by a new person is a whole new thing, and the work of art hopefully takes on a whole new life.<\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong><em>\u2018Armageddon Flower\u2019 will be released on Tao Forms on June 20, 2025. It can be&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/matthewshipptaoforms.bandcamp.com\/album\/armageddon-flower\">purchased on Bandcamp<\/a>. Perelman and the Shipp String Trio will be performing at&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/roulette.org\/event\/vision-festival-2025-1\/\">Roulette Intermedium<\/a>&nbsp;as part of the&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.artsforart.org\/vision\/\">2025 Vision Festival<\/a>&nbsp;on June 5, 2025. More information about&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/matthewshippjazzpianist.blogspot.com\/\">Shipp<\/a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/ivoperelman.com\/\">Perelman<\/a>&nbsp;can be found on their respective websites.<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Photo credit: Anna Yatskevich<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>We continue our conversation with Ivo Perelman and Matthew Shipp on \u2018Armageddon Flower\u2019 (TAO Forms, 2025). You can read Part One here. PostGenre: As far as focusing on the heart, does that go back to getting out of the way, too? Obviously, you need mental and technical skills to be able to make the music [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":10577,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"iawp_total_views":100,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":true,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[582],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-10574","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interviews"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2243-1.jpg?fit=2000%2C1333&ssl=1","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/peRkRR-2Ky","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":10709,"url":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/review-armageddon-flower-perelman-shipp\/","url_meta":{"origin":10574,"position":0},"title":"Review: Ivo Perelman and the Matthew Shipp String Trio\u2019s \u2018Armageddon Flower\u2019","author":"Jim Hynes","date":"June 17, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"If you have not yet read the two-part interview with saxophonist Ivo Perelman and pianist Matthew Shipp regarding Armageddon Flower (TAO Forms, 2025), it provides important context to the recording. The album features a quartet with those two joined by bassist William Parker and violist Mat Maneri, in a chamber-like,\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Album Reviews&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Album Reviews","link":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/category\/reviews\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2607-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2607-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2607-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2607-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":10560,"url":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/perelman-shipp-armageddon-flower-i\/","url_meta":{"origin":10574,"position":1},"title":"Giving Up Control: A Conversation with Ivo Perelman and Matthew Shipp on \u2018Armageddon Flower\u2019 (Part One)","author":"Rob Shepherd","date":"June 3, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"In Lonely on the Mountain (Bantam, 1980), Western novelist Louis L\u2019Amour wisely noted that \"there will come a time when you believe everything is finished, that will be the beginning.\" Instead, as Nicholas Copernicus\u2019 heliocentric model posits, our universe is infinite; there is no real end. The concept of continuity\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Interviews&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Interviews","link":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/category\/interviews\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2230-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2230-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2230-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2230-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":10718,"url":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/review-cosmic-piano-shipp\/","url_meta":{"origin":10574,"position":2},"title":"Review: Matthew Shipp\u2019s \u2018The Cosmic Piano\u2019","author":"Jim Hynes","date":"June 18, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"Pianist and composer Matthew Shipp seems to be garnering as much publicity for his criticisms of Andr\u00e9 3000\u2019s piano album as his own music lately. As is often said, even negative publicity may be good in the long run. This site has certainly given Shipp his fair due, of the\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Album Reviews&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Album Reviews","link":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/category\/reviews\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2609-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2609-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2609-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/06\/img_2609-1.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":6907,"url":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/vibration-aiming-at-silence-matthew-shipp\/","url_meta":{"origin":10574,"position":3},"title":"Vibration Aiming at Silence: A Conversation with Matthew Shipp","author":"Rob Shepherd","date":"September 22, 2023","format":false,"excerpt":"Often the greatest artists have an identifiable voice. This is not to say their works are identical. Instead, no matter their changed surroundings, a shared identifiable quality continues to reflect their artistic essence. Consider Miles Davis. Birth of the Cool (Columbia, 1957) and On the Corner (Columbia, 1973) could not\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Interviews&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Interviews","link":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/category\/interviews\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/shipp.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/shipp.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/shipp.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/09\/shipp.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":11754,"url":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/rob-shepherd-favorite-albums-of-2025\/","url_meta":{"origin":10574,"position":4},"title":"EIC Rob Shepherd&#8217;s Favorite Albums of 2025","author":"Rob Shepherd","date":"December 16, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"2025 was a year of great growth for our site. In addition to Brian Kiwanuka and John Chacona\u2019s reviews, friend turned staff writer Jim Hynes, joined us in a big way. That includes his review of the Big Ears Festival, an event I\u00a0 have long wanted to attend, but for\u2026","rel":"","context":"In &quot;Best of Lists&quot;","block_context":{"text":"Best of Lists","link":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/category\/lists-2\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/img_3222-2.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/img_3222-2.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=350%2C200 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/img_3222-2.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=525%2C300 1.5x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/img_3222-2.jpg?fit=750%2C500&ssl=1&resize=700%2C400 2x"},"classes":[]},{"id":11651,"url":"https:\/\/postgenre.org\/staging\/4567\/best-2025\/","url_meta":{"origin":10574,"position":5},"title":"PostGenre&#8217;s Best of 2025","author":"PostGenre Writing Staff","date":"December 9, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"Deeming any album the \"best\" of a given year is inherently fraught with problems. 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