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Jazz music has long had an interesting, albeit complicated, relationship with more popular musical forms. Swing bands were the pop music craze of the 1930s and 40s. With the emergence of bop, particularly during the postwar era, the lines between artful improvisation-based music and more commercial sentimentality became increasingly stark. But many artists – Ray Charles, Frank Sinatra, James Brown, and Aretha Franklin among them- still found success in exploring the middle ground between ideas of jazz, pop, rock, soul, and R&B. These artists, often dubbed “jazz adjacent” also have a long history of performing at the Newport Jazz Festival. In many ways, Joshua Karpeh, under the nom de plume of Cautious Clay, continues this tradition in both his forthcoming Newport Jazz Festival debut and his soon-to-be-released album, KARPEH (Blue Note, 2023).

Over the last six years, Cautious Clay has found great success in pop, alternative R&B, and indie rock. In addition to working with Billie Eilish, John Mayer, John Legend, Khalid, Kavinsky, Melanie Martinez, and Remi Wolf, his work was also sampled by Taylor Swift, on Lover (Republic, 2019). Even more impressive, however, is that Karpeh has garnered this attention largely as a self-made man. He writes his own compositions, performs them on several instruments ranging from woodwinds to vocals and guitar, produces them, and releases them himself. This self-direction has allowed Karpeh to slip jazz and other influences into his music, even as it gains more widespread approval.

But his sophomore album, KARPEH, digs deeper into his jazz influences than Cautious Clay’s prior works. No one would mistake the album for a straight-ahead jazz recording, but the influences are clear. The sharp yet soulful saxophone solos, atmospheric flute, and relaxed grooving guitar and vocals all combine to create a unique work that is not fenced into a particular style, even when evincing a clear nod to jazz. The presence of guest artists at the forefront of improvised music – Ambrose Akinmusire, Julian Lage, Immanuel Wilkins, Arooj Aftab, Joel Ross, and Julius Rodriguez – who also maintain expansive musical scopes bring this angle further to the forefront. Our conversation with Karpeh makes his love of jazz music even more obvious. Add the audio clips of his family members and a narrative of his family history, and the result is an album of indefatigably catchy tunes with substance.

We sat down with Karpeh to discuss the forthcoming album, his upcoming performance at the Newport Jazz Festival, and his place in the Festival’s history of both jazz and jazz-adjacent artists. 

PostGenre: This will be your first time at Newport, right?

Cautious Clay: Yeah, my first time performing at Newport. I’ve known about it, obviously, for many years. My grandfather, whose voice starts off KARPEH, actually, is a huge fan of the Newport Jazz Festival, so it’s kind of full circle to play it.

PG: So, the Newport Jazz Festival is not just another gig?

CC: No. There is something special about the fact I will be playing at Newport. I tend not to psych myself out of anything. But yeah, I recognize the significance of the Festival and its history. It feels very cool to be performing there. I’m very excited to be able to perform my music there, especially given the context of this album and what I’m trying to accomplish with it.

PG: How did you find out you would be playing at Newport?

CC: Oh Man. So, I think my booking agent had let me know a few months before it was announced. Playing at Newport has been something we had been trying to do for a while. At one point, the Newport Folk Festival was interested in booking me. But with this album the Newport Jazz Festival made a little more sense. It was a little bit of a surprise when the Festival asked me to perform, but it was also really cool.

PG: And, since you mentioned it, KARPEH is certainly a lot-more jazz focused than your other work, which is maybe a little more R&B influenced. 

CC: Yeah, R&B with folk and rock elements.

PG: The Newport Jazz Festival has a long history of presenting artists who the organizers call “jazz adjacent”; music that may be a little outside the traditional category of “jazz” but certainly influenced by it. Jazz adjacent over the Festival’s history has included everyone from Ray Charles and Nina Simone to James Brown and the Roots. Do you see yourself as a continuation of that lineage?

CC: I mean, if you saw me that way, I’d be honored. 

I think to a certain extent, that may be true. But I don’t know. I had struggled with even calling KARPEH a jazz album, to be honest with you. But I didn’t want to be in a position where people who had been my fans for a long time might be unaware of the context this album would be drawing from. The songs are very different from anything else I’ve done before.

I thought of maybe calling it an experimental album or a concept album because, in some ways, jazz is a very coded word to some people. The category is also incredibly broad. What kind of jazz are we talking about here? The category covers everything from Billy Eckstine to Eric Dolphy. But I ultimately decided that the elements of the conversation and storytelling would align the most with presenting it as a jazz album. 

PG: Given KARPEH is more jazz-heavy than your other work, was your compositional process for creating it different from what you have done for other projects?

CC: It was different. With this album, I felt a lot more freedom in the context of my arrangements. I find the verse-chorus-reverse pre-chorus-chorus style of writing to be very limiting. Refocusing that style in the context of what I do was helpful because I have such a strong understanding of musical structure regardless of genre. That [recontextualization] allowed me to write on the horn, as opposed to writing for voice. For “The Tide is My Witness”, as one example, I wanted to create something that felt fresh and catchy.

PG: It is certainly catchy and different, especially your sax solo on the track.

CC: Right. I approached it from the perspective of a horn, not a singer. I sonically felt that approach made the track sound a little like David Sanborn meets 70s Herbie [Hancock]. I would go in with those references and perform them out. I came in with a lot of MIDI tracks. I don’t usually write music out. I did at one point, but that’s a much slower process for me, so I usually use MIDI as my main form of writing. I then showed it to [drummer] Sean Rickman, and we took it from there. 

PG: Since you mentioned “The Tide is My Witness”, that track shows off your saxophone skills. Who are some of your influences for the sax?

CC: I love Eric Dolphy. He is a huge influence. I don’t strive to sound like him, but I do strive to come from his perspective. There are certain modalities he did that I greatly appreciate. Also, Rahsaan Roland Kirk. He was just a very free-spirited player. Cannonball [Adderley] is also my guy, just in terms of the things he did with his solos. I haven’t taken as much inspiration from his soul stuff specifically, but his solos are some of my favorite of all time. In terms of modern players, Chris Potter is one of my favorites. He’s got this very big tone, and there is something about his writing that I have always really liked as well.

PG: Of course, the saxophone is just one of several instruments you play on KARPEH. Is it difficult to transition the project into a live context where you cannot play so many instruments at once?

CC: I have a great band, so it is not that difficult. Usually, I will only play some flute and saxophone and sing. I usually only do those three in live shows. The flute is my main instrument and where I’m most comfortable. I think that I usually try to strike a balance between those three instruments but sometimes I will do a little rhythm guitar as well. 

PG: So, who will be in your group for the Newport performance?

CC: It’s going to be my normal band that I’ve toured with. I’m trying to see if maybe Julian [Lage] can make an appearance because he’s on the album and will be at the Festival. It might be fun to have Julian join us. But I’m just figuring it out as it goes. I think we’re just going to do the set as normal. But we may do things a little differently because it’s Newport. In any event, we are going to try to bring out more of the energy from this album to the show.

PG: In addition to Julian, Ambrose Akinmusire, Joel Ross, and Immanuel Wilkins are on the album as well. All four are also Blue Note artists. Did you initially know you specifically wanted them on the album, or did you go to Blue Note and ask them to find some of their best artists for the record?

CC: I didn’t necessarily go into the album knowing everyone who was going to be on it. But I knew all four of those guys beforehand. Well, with Ambrose I knew about him but had never met him before. [Blue Note President] Don [Was] introduced me to Ambrose, which is very cool. But I knew the other three guys. I’ve known Immanuel for many years through mutual friends.

The album also has Arooj Aftab on “Glass Face.” I became friends with Arooj over the last few months. I felt she would be an amazing addition to that song, mostly to match the style of bass playing on the track. 

PG: The bassist is your uncle, Kai Eckhardt, right?

CC: Yeah, that’s right. He studies a lot of South Asian rhythms and is a student of- I hate to say it but – “world music.” I thought Arooj would sound great with him. 

PG: In addition to being more jazz-influenced, KARPEH uses audio clips to explore your family history. Did you feel that, since this is your second full album, maybe the first one was to tell people who you are, while this one is more introspectively figuring out who you are?

CC: I would say so, yeah. I wanted the music I made for this album to be something bigger. I wanted it to adopt a historical narrative. But I also wanted to be able to internalize some of those historical moments to drive the discussion around who I am and maybe be an inspiration for other people to do the same for themselves.

PG: Another thing that sets KARPEH apart from your other work is that you usually record in your home studio but mostly did not with this album. 

CC: That’s right. It was all out of a studio called Figure 8 in Brooklyn. We did about six days there. I would say 90% of the recording was done at Figure 8. Then I took the rest of it back to my studio to mix and build out.

PG: Do you feel you can hear the fact you used a different studio in the recording?

CC: Definitely. Especially in the drums. 

PG: And, of course, with this album, you are also recording for a major label instead of releasing it yourself.

CC: Yeah, I’ve been mostly independent for the majority of my career.

PG: How did you get hooked up with Blue Note?

CC: Blue Note actually reached out to me. I was told that John Mayer connected the dots with Don Was. Don was familiar with me and interested in us working together. Don and I met up, and I found that he is an amazing human being and a very open-minded, free-spirited guy. It made sense for what I wanted to do with this project to go with Blue Note. I knew I wanted to do something different than what I had done on my last album. With their history and what they stand for, it felt like I could do something really special with Blue Note. 

PG: Has it been difficult working with a major label, in terms of getting your message out, compared to if you had just done it on your own?

CC: No. Blue Note gave me a lot of flexibility, which was a major reason I went with them for this particular album. I think this relationship with Blue Note has felt very connective and open. I think if there’s an opportunity to work with them again that seems right, I would do it. As for this particular album, It was so important for me to do something like this in my career, and I’m happy I have Blue Note supporting me with it.

PG: Yet another interesting aspect of KARPEH is that while you usually work with drum machines, on this album, you used a live drummer. Did you always plan to work with a drummer?

CC: Yeah, I usually use a drum machine and do my own programming. But I had always planned on a live drummer for this album.

The drummer, Sean Rickman, was in a band with my uncle in the late 90s and early 2000s. That’s how I met him, but he’s a character in many ways. He’s on tour with Steve Coleman and has done a couple of tours with Herbie Hancock. He’s real bad, man. Because he lives in Baltimore, he drove up for three days and recorded about half the album. The other half was with my drummer, Alwyn Robinson, and I’ve always loved his sound.

PG: One final question – We mentioned earlier your guest artists on the album. Is there anyone else you would like to work with but have not yet?

CC: That’s a great question. I’m trying to think of someone a little more contemporary. There are so many people I work with who are older.

PG: Well, of course, there are always people like Herbie [Hancock], who are very contemporary even into their 80s.

CC: Yeah, I love Herbie, obviously. But I think it would also be very cool to work with Thundercat. Can you imagine what we could do together?

Catch Cautious Clay at the Newport Jazz Festival on Sunday, August 6, 2023 at 5:05 PM on the Harbor Stage. More information on the Newport Jazz Festival can be found here. We will be providing live coverage of the event. 

More information about Cautious Clay is available on his website. ‘KARPEH’ will be released on Blue Note Records on August 18, 2023. It can be ordered directly from the label.