Thirty-seven and a half million people visit New York City’s Central Park every year. That, by itself, is a fascinating statistic when one considers the entire population of the metropolis is less than a quarter of that amount. What brings so many New Yorkers and tourists alike to the nation’s first landscaped park? Park architect Frederick Law Olmstead answered this question well by noting that the Park provides a “feeling of relief experienced by those entering them, on escaping from the cramped, confined and controlling circumstances of the streets of the town; in other words, a sense of enlarged freedom is to all, at all times, the most certain and the most valuable gratification afforded by a park.” Or, as Olmstead put it a few years later, “[The beauty of Central Park] should be the beauty of the fields, the meadow, the prairie, of the green pastures, and the still waters. What we want to gain is tranquility and rest to the mind.” With Central Park’s Mosaics of Reservoir, Lake, Paths and Gardens (Red Hook, 2024), Wadada Leo Smith and Amina Claudine Myers transport listeners to this place of serenity in a way only such masters could. 

Both creators likely need no introduction to those attuned to creative music. One was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize in Music and has, throughout his career, refined a compositional language, Ankrahsmation, uniquely his own. The other is a newly minted NEA Jazz Master who mixes jazz, blues, and gospel into a distinct and unified voice. Since joining the groundbreaking Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians [AACM] in the 1960s, both have spent their lives continuing to create music that pushes boundaries in furtherance of a higher creative goal. As they have both done throughout their careers, the music comes first. 

Thus, it should come as no surprise when Smith and Myers capably guide listeners through the walkways of Central Park. You can smell the fragrant aroma and see the vibrant colors of the flowers in “Conservatory Gardens.” “Central Park at Sunset” radiates shifting colors of light. One can sense the flow of water under gentle winds at the “Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis Reservoir.” The gentle Eicheresque production of Sun Chung, who previously worked at ECM, also leaves space to better allow these sounds to envelope the listener.

However, true to Olmstead’s call for “tranquility and rest to the mind”, the duo recognizes that specific locations at Central Park are only part of the story. In reality, it is not the park itself that people seek but, rather, what it represents: serenity in a world of chaos. This peace can certainly be found in Central Park, but it is also abundant throughout nature and even within one’s own mind. Hence, Myers’ reflections on rural Arkansas in the gorgeous solo piano piece, “When Was” is as much a consideration of her youthful memories there as a presentation of the place itself. The years may have changed the scenery, but its vivid image is forever etched into her memory and provides her peace. “Albert Ayler, a Meditation on Light” and “Imagine, a mosaic for John Lennon” contemplate the calmness that musical expression can provide to a listener. Ultimately, with Central Park’s Mosaics of Reservoir, Lake, Paths and Gardens, Smith and Myers invite the listener to find a park of their own, whether physically or metaphorically. A place to sit at ease and marvel at the wonder of being alive. 

It was an honor to sit down with the masters to discuss this duo record, the first time they recorded together. In full disclosure, what you are about to read is composed of two separate conversations, set one day apart, and one with each artist. Neither artist knows what the other said. Excerpts from the transcripts of both conversations have been edited and compiled to provide a larger overall arc to the piece.

PostGenre: First, Amina, congratulations on becoming an NEA Jazz Master. That is a big accomplishment. 

Amina Claudine Myers: Thank you. Yes, I was very honored to receive that recognition.  

PG: Were you surprised to be named a Jazz Master? 

ACM: Yes. Well, [the National Endowment for the Arts] told me last year before they made a public announcement that I had been named. I was surprised. I really couldn’t believe it. I was so incredibly honored to receive that recognition. 

PG: Anyone who has been paying attention to your works over the years can attest to how well deserved the recognition is for you. However, it often seems like your name is not discussed as much as some others coming from the AACM. When you joined the AACM, you were one of only a handful of women in the organization. Do you feel your gender held you back at all in terms of getting wider recognition compared to your male counterparts?

ACM: No. I was always put into great situations musically. I never tried to seek out anything myself until I moved to New York years later. Before I moved to New York, there was always someone else who put me into the music, starting when I was playing gospel music in the church. Back in 1957, when I moved back to Arkansas from Dallas, I got the gospel. When I was in the church, the only thing I did on my own was to organize the gospel group. It was because of the church people of the Baptist Church. 

I got into jazz when I was in college. I was doing blues and gospel music at the time. In college, someone introduced me to get me a job playing in a club playing jazz. At first, I said, “I can’t girl, I can’t play no jazz.” She told me I could, and so I did. I tell the story all the time, but I’ll never forget it. 

Then when I got to Chicago – I didn’t go to Chicago to play music, I went to teach school – again someone told a bandleader that I played the piano. I said, “Why are you telling him that?” But that is how I started playing in Chicago because the band leader had recently fired his piano player and hired me to replace him. 

I became a part of the AACM through Ajaramu [Joseph Shelton]. He was part of the AACM and introduced me to Muhal [Richard Abrams]. And I was invited to join the AACM. It was not something you could join on your own. You needed to be invited. So as I said, it was always somebody else that put me into music. 

PG: As far as the AACM, Amina, you even took part in the group’s second concert ever. Did you have a sense then of how important that organization would become? 

ACM: No, I did not. I didn’t even know how to improvise. It was exciting though. The concert I did was with Phil Cohran’s group [the Artistic Heritage Ensemble]. He wrote interesting music. I sang with that group. I don’t think I played piano with them. Everybody was very friendly and very warm. Everyone was doing all kinds of stuff musically, which inspired me. However, I had no idea of how important the AACM would ultimately become. 

PG: How did the two of you meet? Through the AACM?

Wadada Leo Smith: Yes, through the AACM. But I actually knew of Amina before I met her. I saw her playing organ one night with Malachi Favors and Ajaramu. This would have been back around 1967. It was a relatively small club environment. Very few tables, but a lot of people standing. The trio was very powerfully exploding, individually and collectively. And that was my introduction to who she was as a creative artist. And to see her on stage performing was the best introduction that I could have to her. 

ACM: I remember speaking with Wadada when I first met him. We talked about music and he told me he had a system for creating music. I won’t reveal his system because that’s his creativity. But he told me what he did when he was writing music. His message to me was that I should just be myself. I should use my creativity and follow that to write music. Wadada has always been very individualistic. All the musicians in the AACM were. Everyone had their own individual style. 

PG: If you met back in the 1960s, why did it take fifty-some-odd years for the two of you to record together?

ACM: Well, Wadada wanted me to record with him. Generally, people ask me to record with them. I normally only ask a drummer and a bass player to record with me, except for my album Country Girl, where I had a sextet. But for the rest of the recordings I’ve done, other musicians have asked me to record with them. For one, I did three albums with Muhal after he asked me to record with him. Wadada didn’t ask me to record with him until a few years ago, but I was honored he asked me. 

WLS: You know how life is. You can’t plan it. With this album, the occasion to work together made itself visible and possible. I still have quite a few people from the AACM that I would like to record with and have not yet had the chance. But when the moment came and we could record together, Amina was my first and only choice for this project. 

PG: Who else would you like to record with? 

WLS: Well, I would love to record in a duet setting with Henry Threadgill. That’d be cool. I’d also love to record with the pianist Adegoke Steve Colson. There are actually a bunch of people that I would like to make some records with but for which the opportunity has not presented itself. 

PG: Both of you grew up in the Deep South – Wadada in Mississippi and Amina in Arkansas- and both changed your names later in life. Do you feel there’s a connection between the two of you separate from the music?

WLS: There was a connection through the AACM. The AACM is a democratic structure of peers. It’s also made up of both people from Chicago and people from the outside. And that outside crew is like the Jelly as Michael Jackson would call it. I’m talking about a space that is inclusive of their music.

When we came in – and that includes Lester Bowie, John Stubblefield, and all of those renegades and outsiders, every one of us came with their own newly defined and articulated ideas. And that’s a challenge when you come into an environment that’s a little fixed. Dust begins to fly. And by dust, I mean incredible interaction and the discovery of new things. 

ACM: I didn’t change my name, I just added to it. My ex-boyfriend gave all of us names to show our African heritage. I did not use the name Amina for years until I organized my own group in Chicago, Amina and Company. Since then, everybody started calling me Amina. My name, Claudine, is French. My mother gave me that name. And, of course, Myers is my father’s last name. I love those names. I added Amina to those not because I wanted to take away something that my mother gave me but to show my African heritage. But, no, I didn’t associate our growing up at the same time in the same part of the country as a connection. 

PG: One thing that is interesting about Central Park is that all the pieces are fairly slow-moving and make ample use of space and silence. Was that aesthetic choice made as a way to reflect the peacefulness of Central Park?

WLS: The Park is one of those places where you discover yourself if you are there. If you’re walking through it or riding through in a car or something and you’re alone, the Park gives you that quietness and a slow-motion kind of mobility. 

The pieces move in Adagio and Andantino. Andantino comes from the Italian word andante, which means “walking.” There are one or two other pieces that are more in a Largo form where the tempo just hangs and hovers.

But yes, that was the intention, to try to portray the feeling that one gets inside of themselves during a journey through the Park. The section of the Park that I wrote about was mostly around the reservoir, lakes, and the flower conservatory there, which is my favorite spot. Sometimes, in the summertime, I go and sit there. There are branches hanging over a seating area. And you can see butterflies, bees, and those sorts of things circulating through there. It’s a marvelous feeling to be there. 

ACM. As far as silence, silence gives you the chance to think about what you’re writing. Intense thinking or meditation uses silence that way. I’m gonna use a lot of space in music because it lets you think and meditate and see the music more fully. Silence gives you a chance to let your mind explore what you seek and are playing about. 

PG: In general, Wadada, your works are often influenced and inspired by both history and nature. Do you feel that because Central Park does have such an important history, it reflects both of those interests?

WLS: Oh, yes, indeed it does. Actually, I have several Central Park pieces. This recording is just the latest composed version, but I have several of them. What makes Central Park so important is that it’s a human creation. And it’s a huge swath of land in New York City. If New York City was destroyed, Central Park would still remain. It is an amazing human achievement. 

Some things, we just can’t make. We can’t make mountains. Or rivers. Or oceans. We can’t make skies or planets. But the almighty gave us the ability to make our creation on this planet stand out in the most magnificent way. And one of the biggest ways we do that is through music. 

PG: Amina, as someone who grew up in the church and regularly incorporates gospel into their music, do you see music as coming from God? 

ACM: Yes. That’s why whenever I perform, I ask God that his spirit come to my fingers and to the other musicians who are playing with me. And to musicians, period. I pray that God’s spirit will come to me because music is love.  

One time, I went with someone as their guest to a performance. I wasn’t satisfied with what was going on with the music and wanted to hear the Blues guys on the West side of Chicago. So, I went to listen to some Blues. And there was a young bass player there. His Blues music deeply inspired me. In Africa, audience members throw money up on the stage when they like what they hear. So, I was standing up in front of the stage and threw money to the musician. 

Afterward, I told him that his music was from God. He looked at me like I was crazy. He didn’t know what to say. I still remember how he looked at me. He just never heard that the music came from God. But it does. All music does. Music heals people and makes people feel good. It all comes from God. 

PG: In terms of musical creation, Wadada, you’re listed as a composer on almost all of the pieces on Central Park. 

WLS: All the pieces were composed at my house here in New Haven. I’m a composer and I have been composing since I was twelve. I learned how to compose by composing. I didn’t ask anyone to show me how to compose. And, today, I still don’t ask anyone. An inspiration will come to me and I jot it down. If I jot it down on a piece of paper, I’ll put it in my notebook. I’ll come back to it later and develop it. That is how I have done all of my music. 

PG: There is one solo piano piece on the album, “When Was.” What inspired the decision to have a solo piano piece on an otherwise duo album?

WLS: Well, that was something that Amina did in the context of the recording. I thought it was a beautiful piece to add. I also think it was great to add this solo piece to the record because it gives her an opportunity to also show her compositional greatness in the context of this project. 

ACM: I wrote that song as I played it. I created it as I played it. Then I had to think about a title. I came up with the title “When Was” by thinking about growing up in Arkansas. Growing up where I did in the country was a very, very wonderful time. When I moved back to Arkansas from Dallas, I was going into the eleventh grade. My great uncle and great aunt who partially raised me were older and moved us back to Arkansas because they wanted to move back home. At the time I was becoming, in high school, I was being known musically. I was on talent shows and in the choir. I had a wonderful classical pianist as a teacher who had me playing Chopin. You know, when I was in eighth and ninth grade. But I had to move back to Arkansas, my goodness, to a country town with nothing going on there. But that move back to Arkansas was the best move that could happen for us. Now that I’m older, I look at my life and I see it was all part of the master plan of the creator, you know?

God knows what he’s doing with us. I feel like the Creator gives us all talents and if we use our talents, he will take care of us. And that’s not just for artists. It’s also true of doctors, lawyers, cooks, janitors, or whatever. Whatever you do, as I heard someone say a few years ago, “If you use your talent, you will never go broke.”

When I moved back to Arkansas, I moved to a beautiful place. The food was nice and fresh from a garden. You can smell the earth when it rains. You could see the stars in the sky. You can’t see the stars living here in New York, though I do love living in New York City. I never want to leave here to live anywhere else. But the country was a beautiful place and I think I was thinking about Arkansas when I wrote that piece.

PG: Since “When Was” is a solo piece, Amina, how do you feel your approach to solo piano has changed the most since Poems for Piano: The Piano Music of Marion Brown (Sweet Earth, 1979)?

ACM: Well, I hope that I am always continually growing, both as a person and as a musician. Hopefully, my music grows and gets better and better in terms of expressing creativity. I have more ideas to use to express my love of life, nature, and people through the music and to tell stories about what’s going on in this world. 

PG: You can also hear the Blues, jazz, and gospel roots in “When Was.” Perhaps not in regards to this piece, but in several interviews you have also expressed your love of country music, particularly that of Hank Williams, Sr. Do you see country as influencing your music at all? 

ACM: No, though I did write a song about my grandfather that told his story. I wrote that years and years and years ago. I have not yet really concentrated on it to get it recorded. Do you know Olu Dara? 

PG: Yes, the trumpeter-guitarist-vocalist who is also Nas’ father.

ACM: Yes. Years and years ago, I asked him. I wanted him to do my grandfather’s part. My grandfather was a storyteller. He had horses and I have many stories about him with the horse. Nobody tells you how to ride horses. You just get on the horse and ride. Anyway, I wrote this story about my grandfather, but I never developed it. One of these days I’m going to though. 

But, with country music, Hank Willams’ music is very visual. Pretty much all country music, at the time I was listening to it, was incredibly visual. I love Hank Williams and how visual his songs are. I remember one song he wrote about a little boy who wanted some chocolate ice cream. His mother bought him an ice cream cone. And as he was coming home, a dog bit him on the leg and he dropped his ice cream cone. I felt so sad for the little boy. That is the sort of thing that draws me to country music- the stories and the truth in the songs. You could see those things very clearly. But I really haven’t used, I don’t think, country music when I’m performing. 

PG: Two of the pieces Wadada wrote for the album are not about places in Central Park, but instead, honor Albert Ayler and John Lennon. How did you see those pieces within the context of the rest of the album, which generally focuses on the Park? 

WLS: Well, Albert Ayler was a New Yorker. He grew up in Ohio, but he was based in New York and he made his revolutionary footprint in New York City. With all my projects, I bring something different. Like when I did America’s National Parks (Cuneiform, 2016), I made a Literary Park for Doctor Eileen Jackson Southern. I also made New Orleans a National Cultural Park. I did the same thing with The Great Lakes Suite (TUM, 2014) by having a piece for Lake St. Clair, which isn’t one of the Great Lakes. 

The two pieces dedicated to Ayler and Lennon are part of that tradition. The one thing they share with the Park is that both bring spiritual peace. If you hear a piece of either’s music, you get that peace that is the same you experience when in the Park. The peace you feel is immaterial. You can’t touch it and you can’t change the volume on it. But it’s in the park as well. 

PG: Wadada, you have made many duo recordings. What is it about that format that speaks to you? 

WLS: I probably have more drum duets than anybody on the planet. Probably more piano duos too. I’m not bragging about it, I’m just trying to state a fact. What I’ve learned- regardless of whether it is with drums, piano, or guitar – in a duet, you can hear both instruments from top to bottom, both in their horizontal and vertical contexts. You can get them very clear. The duet is also a form that allows its two participants to realize the vastness of the space between the two of them. And it makes them focus on how to make that space responsible for creation. 

PG: And, Amina, earlier you mentioned your duo recordings with Muhal Richard Abrams. Other than Instrumentation – Muhal played piano and Wadada plays trumpet – did creating Central Park with Wadada feel similar to when you did the duos with Muhal?

ACM: No, working with Wadada was a completely different experience than working with Muhal. 

Muhal and I would rehearse the music at my house. I was on the organ and he was on the piano. That’s how we rehearsed. I was able to look at and study Muhal’s music before we rehearsed. People say, “Well, which one was your part?” But we just started playing and it was very, very creative in everything we played. And I did one of my pieces with him. 

Wadada also gave me a chance to do one of my compositions. I asked Wadada for the music he wrote and didn’t see it until we were playing it in the studio. And when you look at his music, he has to explain it because the way he writes is completely different from how anyone else does. It’s beautiful the way he writes. He makes music that is very free when you start playing, but it is also very structured and you need to know the structure. That is completely different from when I’ve worked with other musicians. People like [Anthony] Braxton and Muhal write the music all out and you play it and you improvise. But Wadada, the way he writes music, uses numbers and his own staff. He uses the bass clef and treble clef but not in the sense that we’re used to reading. So you have to study Wadada’s music in his form and everything. 

PG: Wadada, in terms of this particular duo with Amina, how does it most differ from your other piano duos with people like Angelica Sanchez or Vijay Iyer?

WLS: Well, it’s all about the sensibility of how you mix and how you interact with each other. That’s the biggest difference. The piano is going to sound like a piano. And the trumpet is going to sound like it does. The differences are in how we connect with each other. What kind of heart and soul do we bring to the peace? That makes the difference. And those kinds of things also clearly affect the music. It’s that kinetic energy that flows back and forth that matters. 

PG: Amina, is playing with Wadada similar to when you worked with Lester Bowie given they are both playing the same instrument?

ACM: Working with Wadada is very different than with Lester. Lester was incredible, too, but in a different way than Wadada. I really can’t speak about the minds of either one, but they have completely different ways of performing and playing. For one thing, I never saw Lester with written music. We would create stuff on the spot. Wadada does use written music, but it’s still open but completely creating as you perform. They are alike because they are both creating as they are playing, through improvising. But Wadada has charts and Lester didn’t. 

PG: Finally what do you respect most about one another as an artist?

WLS: I love Amina’s ability to create a notion of her own self that is secure and confident. Also, her willingness to take a chance on finding or discovering something new. 

ACM: I love Wadada’s individuality. He’s truly in his own way, walking down the road by himself, with confidence and reality. He is his own individual self. He works completely differently from the traditional way people write music. He’s also a warm individual. And funny. Wadada, when he was teaching at Cal State, had me out there twice for workshops. That showed me that he had a lot of respect for my music. He also sent me some things he did. He did a Miles Davis thing [Yo Miles!  with Henry Kaiser (Cuneiform, 1998)] which showed another side of him. There are many sides to his music but they are all distinctly him. 

‘Central Park’s Mosaics of Reservoir, Lake, Paths and Gardens’ will be released on May 10, 2024 on Red Hook Records. It can be ordered on Bandcamp. More information on Wadada Leo Smith can be found on his website. You can also read more about Amina Claudine Myers on her site.

Photo credit: Luke Marantz.