Resonances: A Conversation with DM Hotep on Marshall Allen’s Ghost Horizons

In a 2021 interview, Henry Threadgill noted his belief that “[Marshall Allen] should have the highest award that can be bestowed on any artist for performing one-nighters at age 97. They should make up an award for such a person… he’s going unrecognized. It is a travesty. Can you imagine doing one-nighters at 97 years old? And then going out dancing afterward?… It’s unbelievable that anyone could have that kind of stamina.” But Allen’s exceptionalism goes beyond merely vitality at over a century in age. The saxophonist’s brilliance comes instead through his music and its ability to uniquely combine the wisdom of his age with a youthful vibrancy. Even so, the march of time continues. Like any centenarian, the years have caught up to Allen to some extent, with his doctor restricting his ability to tour. And yet, things are not as they may appear. In the film Space is the Place (1974), Sun Ra states, “The earth cannot move without music. The earth moves in a certain rhythm, a certain sound, a certain note. When the music stops, the earth will stop…” Live in Philadelphia (Otherly Love, 2025)  by Allen’s Ghost Horizons, featuring DM Hotep, shows an artist still very much in motion, even as he remains in his home city. 

While finally receiving some of the recognition long due to him – for one, he was recently named a Jazz Master by the National Endowment for the Arts – such acclaim is often invariably tied to Allen’s work with Sun Ra. Having been in the Man from Saturn’s orbit since the 1950s, to some extent, such an emphasis makes sense.  Even more so when one considers that under his leadership since 1995, Allen has brought Ra’s Arkestra to a cultural prominence it had never experienced before. Even so, however, Ra’s work has been only part – albeit an important one – of Allen’s artistry. Projects like the underrated Night Logic (RogueArt, 2010) trio with Matthew Shipp and Joe Morris have highlighted Allen’s music a bit further removed from Ra. But Live in Philadelphia goes further than any other project has gone before.

Live in Philadelphia is an all too brief glimpse into Ars Nova Workshop’s ongoing Ghost Horizons concert series curated by the Arkestra’s longtime guitarist DM Hotep. A creative outlet for Allen while stuck closer to home, the concerts surround him with not only younger collaborators – Immanuel Wilkins, James Brandon Lewis, Brian Marsella, and Luke Stewart among them – but also long-established ones like William Parker. The unifying force behind the selections is the significance the guest artists – like Allen himself- ascribe to improvisational ingenuity even as they express it in ways differently from the veteran saxophonist. Principally, Hotep selected those who would push Allen beyond his charted zone – quite a feat for someone who has spent a career in the sonic cosmos. From the starkly harsh  “Back to You” with noise duo Wolf Eyes to the hypnotic Afrocuban rhythmic conversations with the Ade Ilu Lukumi Batá Ensemble on “Cosmic Dreamers, ode to Elegua,” the experiment pays off well, not only mapping out new realms but showing the true depths of Allen’s artistry. 

Featuring several of Ra’s compositions and other Arkestra members – Tara Middleton, Michael Ray, and Dave Davis – the double album does not ignore the legacy of Ra that lives inside Allen; honestly, how could you? But by pushing him to continue to innovate and explore, it reveals the saxophonist in his truest and most natural state, an artist imbued with fragments of Ra but ultimately his own creative force worthy of fuller acknowledgment. We sat down with DM Hotep to discuss the record, the Ghost Horizon series, and more.

PostGenre: How did the Ghost Horizons series start? 

DM Hotep: The Arkestra was scheduled to go overseas, and Marshall couldn’t go. That was the initial impetus. Ghost Horizons began as a way to keep Marshall busy after he found out he wouldn’t be able to tour much anymore. I ended up contacting Mark Cristman with Ars Nova to ask him if there was anything Marshall could do while we were in Europe, and he suggested a performance. Initially, it was going to be only a one-off performance. 

PG: But the single performance became an ongoing series. 

DH: Right. The initial performance went well, and Mark suggested we start doing them monthly. As we moved forward, our focus became more about how diverse an ensemble we could put together to ensure we were not simply reiterating the same thing over and over again. Because Marshall is so adept at creating sound from sound – improvising in various situations – our series became more about how diverse a selection of people with improvisational mindsets we could collaborate with. We sought out people who were either adjacent to Marshall or completely different from Marshall. We wanted to see many different situations we can put Marshall into that would be intriguing for both him and the audience. Marshall can operate in so many “genres” of music or musical environments. With that mindset, we opened the gates to both veteran people from the jazz or avant-garde, as well as new people coming up, from either of those or a different background. The latter is partly where the “Horizons” part of the series’ name came from; younger musicians coming up. We also liked that we could throw a curve, whether having Wolf Eyes bring electronic elements or seeing what Charlie Hall could add. Most recently, we curated a chamber string ensemble and brought people more from the classical music tradition into the conversation. Our series is very experimental. But it is also very joyous to get together with people who like to improvise, regardless of the specific sound elements they use to do so. 

PG: Granted, Sun Ra’s music is already very broad in scope, but do you feel that exploring these different contexts may give audiences a larger perspective on what Marshall can do musically instead of solely associating him with Sun Ra and the Arkestra? 

DH: Well, I can’t say how people perceive Marshall. Everyone he has worked with in the series has known who he is and looked forward to finding out what they could do together. Some people approached the collaboration with more nervousness than others, but generally, we’ve been lucky to get some great improvisers with various realms of inspiration and backgrounds. 

PG: You mentioned a minute ago how the “Horizons” in “Ghost Horizons” refers to the more upcoming musicians involved in the project. Is “Ghost” a reflection on the past then? 

DH: So, the moniker “Ghost Horizons” we developed from free associating some ideas of what the series, once it was clear it was more than just a one-off performance, was going to be. The idea of “Ghost Horizons” developed from the idea of how there is a point where the horizon melts into the sky, and they seem to merge – especially over large bodies of water, when the day or night is not completely clear. It suggested the imminence of possibility and the existence of something to behold. We were looking for both people with a veteran grip on improvisational methodology and people who were open to improvisation, but would benefit from learning something from Marshall and interacting with him. And so, that meeting of the past and present is really what “horizon” represents. 

As far as the “ghost,” it represents a spirit. Whether you’re an old musician or someone new, maybe even someone in high school who only started an instrument weeks ago, you’re learning to pull from a spiritual force that represents everything we’ve heard musically, as well as things in our subconsciousness. Our use of “ghost” is a reflection on that idea. 

PG: The series has now had several performances and continues to grow, with Live in Philadelphia collecting only some of its highlights thus far. Do you plan to release more recordings in the future? 

DH: It depends on the reception the release receives. If people want more, there is plenty [material] available. We had a difficult time narrowing down what should be on the record – out of what we have. When it was decided to make this a double [vinyl] album, it meant we would be offering an aesthetically classic package – vintage technology, but with great fidelity and collectability; but it also imposed time constraints that you wouldn’t have to deal with if it were on digital media. So, a lot of great performance had to be left on the cutting room floor. It was very difficult to decide what made it and what didn’t. As you may know, the criteria is what fits well together in 20 minute blocks. So there’s a lot more from the performances that could be released later, if that’s demanded. 

PG: You have a background in architecture. Do you feel that background guided you at all in terms of either putting these performances together or in finding how the recorded pieces should fit together on the album? 

DH: Well, I’ll say that my architecture background resonates subconsciously with the way I think naturally. It inevitably carries over to my musical outlook, process, workflow, and how I experience music being collectively constructed. I mean, I do have a similar design/build outlook to creativity – as when I was practicing architecture as an architectural apprentice. A lot of similar considerations and computations are involved. We’re creating functional art; leadsheets are floorplans; orchestration and harmonic motion are engineering tables; math is integral to the art. 

For this record release, I was mainly one of the creative consultants, rather than the main-and-final decider, which was fine because I felt it was great to have other people’s perspectives, reactions, and input about what they found compelling and important about this music, and how to get that excitement across to a general public. My main job is to curate the ensembles, and be the go-between for these diverse groups of musicians we are working with, Marshall Allen, and the performance itself. 

PG: Going back, how did you first meet Marshall? 

DH: Wow. I met Marshall when he was a very young man; he was maybe seventy-five years old, I think. [laughing]. In 1999 the Arkestra was invited to do a New Year’s Eve concert in Philadelphia. At the time, they had just recently released the A Song For The Sun (El Ra, 1999) album, which was the first album to represent the Arkestra as an ensemble under Marshall’s leadership. The Arkestra had started to tour again – after not touring for a long while, since back when John [Gilmore] led the band. But they needed a string section for this Philadelphia performance. I knew many of the avant-garde musicians around Philadelphia and heard that the Arkestra was looking for strings. My wife Tara, who was just my girlfriend at the time, (and is now the Arkestra’s vocalist) said to me, “Well, the guitar has strings, doesn’t it?” and she basically forced me into auditioning. They hired me for the gig and stuck me in the rhythm section with Luqman Ali and Charlie Ellerbe. 

I ended up not joining the Arkestra again for another half a year. They were about to go back on tour and needed a harmonic instrument. And that’s how I joined the Arkestra. Once I did, I started going over to the [Sun Ra] House about four times a week. Marshall trained me on how to play Sun Ra’s music. Because they have such a huge book of music spanning so many different styles, it was daunting. But Marshall helped me work out the process of playing in the ensemble, which was actually very typical of his role even when [Sun Ra] was leading the band. Often, musicians would come in and sit for a rehearsal. If somebody needed watching or extra help with playing the parts, Ra would send them to Marshall to train them on phrasing and help them with their parts. 

PG: You have now been in the Arkestra for twenty-five years. How do you feel it’s changed the most during that time? 

DH: Ohh, wow. It’s a whole new environment. When Marshall first started leading the band, he insisted it be a collective because he recognized that he wasn’t Sun Ra. No one person could be. He encouraged people to bring their creativity to the band. To bring what resonated with them about the music, the myth and message, and mission of Sun Ra. And that was a thrilling, liberating, and scary experience. 

Of course, at that point, the Arkestra wasn’t the system it is today. Many things we have now are a luxury compared to what they used to be. [The late] Gabby Kleinschmidt, whose agency still handles European booking for the band, was unable to book us as many gigs as we have today. Not because of her, but because people had no idea that Sun Ra’s true Arkestra even still existed! Or what was it even representing at that point! We’d be able to get over to Europe, but there would be many empty days while there. Things didn’t change dramatically until the Centennial of Sun Ra’s birth in 2011. Starting then, we started getting more and better bookings to the point that, now, the Arkestra, in a way, is a little more celebrated than it ever was during Sun Ra’s lifetime, which is a good thing because it deserves to be celebrated, and experienced. 

PG: And what do you feel you have learned the most from Marshall? 

DH: Wow. That’s an essay worth writing. There’s so much I have learned… Uh,.. the essence of the swing rhythms. Not to rely on correctness all the time. How to maintain calmness. Marshall is a strong guy, I mean moral fortitude, and that’s really served him well. But he is also levelheaded and chill most of the time. He doesn’t let reactionary agitation become part of his personality. I also learned how important it can be to be able to hold on to the melody and let go of the melody at the same time. Like, you have a melodic code that Marshall can jump off of at any time and drop a sound bomb for a while, and then jump right back to the melody at just the right spot. You can hear that on the record, too. 

PG: Definitely. Live in Philadelphia also does a great job highlighting the different contexts Marshall can excel in. Some of it sounds incredibly different from his work with the Arkestra, which is already very diverse. 

DH: OK, so that’s an interesting point. Sun Ra’s discography covers five or six decades and provides many points of entry into this idea of “jazz” from a big band sound to some really free stuff. 

Earlier, I mentioned how Marshall said he wanted the Arkestra to be a collective because he wasn’t Sun Ra. At one point, somebody came into the band claiming that he knew where Sun Ra wanted the group’s music to go and that we needed to follow him. And we all pushed back at him because, ultimately, we all follow our own version of Sun Ra. When he led the Arkestra, Sun Ra always drew from straight-ahead jazz like Fletcher Henderson and Duke Ellington’s big band arrangements and songbooks. When John [Gilmore] led the band, what resonated with him was straight-up bebop jazz, and while he only led the Arkestra for a short time, the band relied more on bebop stuff and stomps. Trumpeter Michael Ray has learned things from Sun Ra that resonate with him specifically. If you watch Michael’s group, Cosmic Krewe, things about Sun Ra would come out, but it would be funky Michael Ray’s version. I had the pleasure and honor of sitting in with trombonist Tyrone Hill’s band when he was still alive. Tyrone had a long history of playing with R&B bands before he joined the Arkestra. So, his band played music that represented the R&B elements of Sun Ra while also embracing free improvisation. So, in the Arkestra, we all have our ideas of Sun Ra’s legacy. We each take something from Sun Ra that resonates with each of us. We’re representing the music, and you bring a part of that performance with you. Hence, why we must move as a collective.

And Marshall has his own insights about Sun Ra that resonate with him. Marshall’s general affinity has been for the avant-garde and the sounds of sweet balladry through the lens of Sun Ra. “Ghost Horizons” finds those things that excite Marshall as an individual and that he responds to strongly. Using what I know about Marshall, I can pull out the energy of a sixty-year-old man from this guy who is about to turn one hundred and one years old. But, like Sun Ra, Marshall has also found ways to use the spirit of whoever he is working with. And, in so doing, we get to that broad spectrum of possibilities that resonate with not only the different people on the stage, but also the different people in the audience, all in service of the mission to save the planet.

‘Live in Philadelphia’ by Marshall Allen’ Ghost Horizons will be released on Otherly Love Records on May 23, 2025. It can be purchased on Bandcamp.

Photo credit: Ryan Collerd