Undercurrent: A Conversation with Ulf Ivarsson and Bill Laswell (Part Two)

We continue our conversation with bassists Ulf Ivarsson and Bill Laswell (read Part One here) with a further discussion of their new album Nammu (Ropeadope, 2022). We also cover Miles Davis, Ornette Coleman, turntablists, and the concept of genre.

PostGenre: Ulf, how did you write the parts for Nammu? 

Ulf Ivarsson: When I sat down to put these tracks together, I came prepared. I had my ideas ready to go and was clear about what I wanted to do with the music. We had only a few months to put everything together musically, instead of a few years. I programmed the drums and the synthesizer. I started approaching the recording, essentially as a demo. Once my ideas became clearer, and I knew better what I wanted to do for certain parts, I put them into the music. A lot of the music was tightly arranged before I showed it to the musicians. Most of the sax parts are improvised but there were guides for him to follow. And the electronic parts were programmed and played by me. Overall, my picture of the music was very clear before I brought in the other musicians. 

PG: At times, the music on Nammu is reminiscent of recordings from Miles Davis’ electric period. For instance, certain moments in Thomas Backman’s alto sax solo on “Im Nun” sound a little like Sonny Fortune on Agharta (Columbia, 1975) and Pangaea (Columbia, 1976). You both mentioned Miles a little earlier. What influence do you think his music had on this project?

UI: There’s no trumpet on Nammu. And the colors used differ significantly from track to track. But the influence from Miles’ electric period is undeniable. As far as that specific solo, I can see a connection to Agharta. But I recommended to Thomas that he try to play like Peter Brötzmann, but a little less aggressive. Ultimately, I told him to just go for it. I need to go outside the box musically, and tell the other musicians I work with to do so also. I think Miles did the same with his band on each of his albums. 

Additionally, because of the openness of both Miles’ music and ours, it’s natural that Nammu would be influenced somewhat by Miles. I’ve long been a fan of Miles’ live recordings in particular and am sure those are sometimes in the back of my mind when composing. Bill, you may know the true story on this; were both Agharta and Pangea recorded on the same day?

Bill Laswell: They were both recorded around the same time, live in Tokyo in February 1975. They did a few shows while there. 

UI: Dark Magus (Columbia, 1977) was recorded before that, right? 

BL: I think they recorded Dark Magus in New York, at Carnegie Hall, financed by a Japanese label. The guy who made that record happen was named Tatsu Nosaki. 

PG: Bill, you spent significant time remixing Miles’ electric era recordings for Panthalassa: The Music of Miles Davis 1969–1974 (Columbia, 1998). You are working on a new remix as well, right?

BL: Yeah, it’s finished. You will hear about it really soon, I hope.

PG: Did you also almost work with Miles? There is a rumor that when he was starting to put together Tutu (Warner, 1986), he reached out to you to request that you work on a few tracks, but you were not interested.

BL: Well, it wasn’t Miles who reached out to me. It was Tommy LiPuma, who was an executive at Warner Brothers. Tommy said that Miles wanted to do a record with me but only wanted me to do half of the album. They were going to go with Marcus Miller for the other half. I told Tommy and his people that I didn’t want to do only half of a record.

But I also told them I had an idea that I wanted to discuss directly with Miles. They set me up to meet with Miles in Paris, and I explained my idea to him. He seemed really into my concept. But I told him that I couldn’t do half of an album as they were discussing. I would need to do a whole album but would be happy to wait for the next one. That next one didn’t end up happening. Miles had only a few more years left to live. I didn’t expect him to die so soon after.

PG: Do you feel he would have gone in a different direction if he had gone with you for that full album?

BL: Absolutely. 100% different direction.

PG: Any sense of what that direction would be?

BL: No. I don’t try to make predictions or engage in hypotheticals. But I do know that I would have written the music very differently than what ended up on Tutu. 

PG: Since we are on the topic of some legendary musicians you have worked with, is it true that somewhere there is a recording of you and [saxophonist and Curlew leader] George Cartwright with Ornette Coleman?

BL: George and I played with Ornette, but we did not record. In 1980, Ornette was trying to put together a band of new people in New York with a lot of guitars. I think he called the band White House. I told Ornette that George loved his music and took George to the rehearsal. But the band didn’t end up working out, and nothing was recorded. But I knew Ornette very well and have about four hours of bass and alto saxophone duets that I will eventually put out, somehow. 

PG: Fascinating. Have you ever considered writing an autobiography? 

BL: Yeah, just before our call, I was talking to a writer, S.H. Fernando, Jr., who can hopefully help me get one done. He’s written a book on the Wu-Tang Clan [From the Streets of Shaolin: The Wu-Tang Saga (Hachette, 2021)]. He’s currently working on one on MF Doom. And he previously wrote The New Beats (Anchor, 1994), the definitive hip hop book in the 90s.

I’ve tried many times with different writers to get a biography written. But the writers all seemed a little overwhelmed with the project. Part of their difficulty comes from my continuing to record and make music. Because I am still making music, there is no good ending to the book. Often the writers move on. I would like to write something before I lose my memory. At the moment, I could do it, but the bigger problem is finding a publisher and a book deal. But, hopefully, it all comes together within the next year or so. 

PG: You both adopt a very broad approach to music. Is there anything musically that you have not explored yet but would be interested in exploring?

UI: Often, whether I would like to further explore something is a gut decision, not based on anything I can verbalize very well. Much depends on who my collaborators will be and how interesting I find their other music. For example, last week, I met a guy who makes music using turntables. He didn’t use scratching but more mixing of samples on the turntables to make a melody. The sound he gets on the turntable is very cool. I may try to make something with him and a horn player and see how it sounds. I’m generally pretty open-minded musically. 

But I’m also in a small musical environment here in Sweden. It is difficult to find other musicians here who make music more aligned with my interests. It’s much easier to find collaborators in the [United] States. There is also a British tabla player named Talvin Singh with whom I would be interested in collaborating. But the point is that I may need to move outside Sweden to have musical opportunities that better align with my interests. 

BL: I’m very fortunate to have, during my career, already done most of what I wanted to do musically. Occasionally, There are not many new people I would like to work with, but there are some. I also go through phases when it comes to music. My newest phase uses minimal repetitions in music. I’m going to do a few records with just drum and bass and little else.

PG: Do you see these phases throughout your career as wholly separate, or are they somehow connected? Or, put another way, are bands like Praxis, Painkiller, Material, Arcana, and the rest different stops along a common line?

BL: They are all connected in some way. You could even argue they are continuations of one another, but maybe the connections aren’t as obvious to some people. Another phase I am planning to visit soon is modern hip hop. There are a lot of younger musicians who provide beats for very established artists. I am going to see if I can find a way to incorporate my bass into their music.

PG: Have you been surprised by how the use of turntables and samples has evolved and developed since you did “Rockit” with Herbie Hancock and Grandmixer DXT almost forty years ago?

BL: Their use has certainly evolved a lot since I worked on “Rockit.” About twenty years ago,I was in a band with Rob Swift and The X-Ecutionwrs. We had eight turntables. Then, I went through a period with DJ Krush and Rob Swift. But, generally, other than working with DJ Logic, I haven’t used the turntable much since then.

PG: Ulf once noted that he sought “music without any genres, open-minded attitude whatever style and creativity with instinct rather than smartness and credibility.” What are both of your thoughts on genre?

BL: I don’t believe in genres. It may help people find things in a record store, but it shouldn’t limit anyone. Those limits are unnecessary. 

UI: I think the insistence on genres can be a big issue. I can understand how categorizing music can provide some people with a sense of identity and security. But the process, in general, is very stupid. For genres to work, you often must rely on other people telling you whether something sounds good, whether you should listen to a particular record, and how much value there is in a specific genre. If you tell someone you are into prog rock, they may try to convince you it’s not very good. But there are many great prog albums by King Crimson and many others. 

I don’t understand the close-mindedness some people have towards music. The lack of inhibitions is what initially got me interested in punk music. You could do anything you wanted musically within the punk sphere. Imposing limitations, which does come with an emphasis on genre, is not good for music. It can needlessly put walls around your tastes. Once you start putting up fences around you, you crush your creativity.

Nammu is now available on Ropeadope Records. It can be purchased on Bandcamp.

More Information on Bill Laswell can be found on his website. More Information on Ulf Ivarsson can be found on his Facebook Page.