All Connected: A Conversation with Ron Carter (Part One)

Ron Carter is one of the most esteemed voices in contemporary music. Since arriving in New York in 1959, the so-called “golden year” of jazz, he has developed into one of the music’s most iconic artists. With over 2,200 recordings to his credit, Mr. Carter is the most recorded jazz bassist of all time. That’s not some hastily given title either; the Guinness Book of World Records verified the distinction.  

But the maestro’s output is more than just immense quantity. A quick survey of some of the best recordings of the last six decades would show his low, bold, and beautiful tone on several. There’s a reason that Rolling Stone, a publication that infrequently focuses on jazz, called Mr. Carter one of the “10 Greatest Bassists of All Time.”

Despite his impressive career, too many interviewers focus on one of two projects, either his membership in Miles Davis’ Second Great Quintet or his track with A Tribe Called Quest. These impulses are understandable. After all, the quintet is often heralded as among the best groups in improvised music, while Mr. Carter’s work with Tribe further underscores the historical ties between jazz and hip hop. 

But they are both just bright spots in his luminous career. When one takes a broader focus, they find that not only has Mr. Carter stayed true to the title given to him by the National Endowment for the Arts – Jazz Master- but also has a career that stretches into all areas of music. Similar to our interview with Sonny Rollins, this conversation with the bass legend aims to dig a little deeper; to ask questions that have not been asked of him a million times.

On May 4, 2022, Mr. Carter turned 85 and seems to be as active as ever. We also attempt to connect his past to two forthcoming performances. The first, “For the Love of Ron – Ron Carter and Friends: 85th Birthday Celebration”, is a very special evening at Carnegie Hall on May 10th. The second is his forthcoming performance with his Foursight Quartet at the 2022 Newport Jazz Festival.

PostGenre: First, congratulations on your recent well-deserved Grammy [2022 Best Jazz Instrumental Album] for Skyline (5 Passion, 2021) with Jack DeJohnette and Gonzalo Rubalcaba. 

Ron Carter: Thank you. 

PG: What does it mean to you to be turning 85?

RC: Well, I’m glad to see it. During the pandemic, one of my students sent me recordings I had been on over the years that I forgot about and didn’t remember recording at all. It is great to know that my career stretches that far back with some really nice records. I was quite surprised I have had so many great chances to make good music. And being 85 means that I’ve been making music long enough to see some of my concepts take root elsewhere musically. I look forward to further developing them myself as well.

PG: Were there any albums you ran across that particularly surprised you?

RC: There is one album by James Taylor’s sister, Kate Taylor [Kate Taylor (Columbia, 1978)]. I had a great bass sound on one track of that album, “Harriet Tubman.” I completely forgot about making the record and, listening to it years later, I really enjoyed it.

PG: And Kate Taylor is not the only more “popular” artist with whom you have recorded. You also contributed to recordings by artists including Jerry Jeff Walker, The Rascals, Roberta Flack, Aretha Franklin, and Paul Simon. What are your thoughts on the connection between jazz and more “popular” music?

RC: I’m always surprised to find when these people who were not part of the jazz community have looked around for someone to help their project take shape and settle on my name as someone who could help make their project reach their dreams. That they even know my name, given their diverse musical backgrounds, and level of popularity in their own fields has always been surprising to me. I have often wondered how they stumbled upon my name for their project, but I don’t want to spoil their magic. So, I’ve never asked them. I think every master of music looks for someone to help them do something other than just what’s been done a thousand times. That’s certainly true for Paul Simon, Aretha Franklin, or Roberta Flack. They each concluded that there was another way to approach music.

PG: One of the most popular musical forms today is hip hop. Your collaboration with A Tribe Called Quest on Low End Theory (Jive, 1991) is well-documented. But a little less frequently discussed is your contribution to Gil Scott Heron’s Pieces of a Man (Flying Dutchman, 1971). People often point to Heron as a proto-rapper. Do you see a connection between your work with him and the later collaboration with A Tribe Called Quest?

RC: It’s all connected. And they both also connect to the album I did a few years ago with Danny Simmons [the brown beatnik tomes (Blue Note, 2019)]. I have long played with folk singers and poets. When I was working with Gil, the idea of having music accompany poetry was nothing new to me as a performer or listener. And it certainly wasn’t decades later when I recorded with A Tribe Called Quest. 

As far as Gil, his record came along when there was a space in the air for some new music. People seemed to be seeking a new approach to addressing social problems. Gil had a real ability to use rhyme and musical direction to discuss some very difficult topics. He found a way to make those issues a part of the national conversation. Whether “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” or “Lady Day and John Coltrane”, the songs were specific commentaries on the day’s social scene. He was able to use music as a tool to raise awareness and address the social ills we’re all facing. I hope more people – rappers, singers, or poets – who are tackling social issues will feel comfortable calling on me to help them take the project to another level of awareness. 

PG:  That focus on addressing social issues also explains your song “Un Ange en Danger”with MC Solaar as it is on an album, Stolen Moments: Red Hot + Cool (GRP, 1994), an AIDS awareness project.

RC: Yes. But I won’t work with just any rapper or poet. Too many focus on getting acclaim. I’m disappointed that more people are not as fearless as I’d hope they’d be. 

PG: Back to your turning 85, to celebrate you will be performing with three groups at “For the Love of Ron –  Ron Carter and Friends: 85th Birthday Celebration”, a very special concert at Carnegie Hall.

RC: Right.

PG: One of the groups is an octet where you will be on piccolo bass. You invented the piccolo bass, correct?

RC: It’s a name for the instrument that I share with a couple of people. I wouldn’t say I invented the instrument as much as I made it popular on the jazz set. Before I started recording with it, no one had really used the instrument in the jazz environment. And a couple of guys also use the same name for the electric bass pitched up really high with four or five extra strings on it. Though I’m probably the tallest guy who uses the name. [laughing].

PG: How did you start playing the piccolo bass specifically?

RC: Well, like everyone else, I wanted to be a bandleader. I wanted to be the focal point of the group when someone walked through the door to see my group.  I didn’t want there to be any question who was the bandleader. If I had hired a horn player or a very famous piano player, they would likely get more attention. I wanted to be the guy who got the most attention in my own group.

A friend of mine recommended to me a bass maker in New Jersey who might be able to solve my problem by creating an instrument that could be the focal point. The bass maker put together some dimensions and told me what he could do and made a small little instrument, about a half-size bass, and tuned differently – CGDA from top to bottom. I wanted a bass that would be out of the rhythm bass player’s range but have enough substance to lead the group. This instrument proved to be what I needed.

Later, I found an instrument from around 1810 that was, basically, the same size and converted to a four-string bass. It’s that instrument that I continue to play to this day. It’s closer to the cello than a full-size bass in terms of range.  But it allows me to play with some weight, so it doesn’t sound like a bass player playing time on the violin.

PG: The octet also features four cellos. You started on the cello before playing bass. Do you feel that starting as a cellist gives you a different perspective on playing bass compared to someone without that background?

RC: No. 

My experience with the cello showed me some things that I used later. It taught me how to practice and how to prepare a lesson. Playing the cello also taught me how to do well under pressure; to perform in an environment that may be less than friendly to you. I think those lessons are good things for people to learn, regardless of their goal or field. But I don’t think that the cello itself necessarily gave me a head start or benefit compared to others.

Now, some other bass players have played what they call the cello. But theirs were turned like a small bass – GDAE. Oscar Pettiford did that, as did Sam Jones. Also, Eldee Young when he was playing with Ramsey Lewis. [Charles] Mingus occasionally fooled around with it. Several bass players made that instrument part of their music. Mine was the real cello; tuned ADGC. So, there was a separation between the two camps.

PG: Probably the best-known albums featuring you on cello are those you did with Eric Dolphy, both under his name and your own. What was it like working with Eric?

RC: Eric was interesting because he was one of the only guys who not only played an unusual instrument – bass clarinet – but really played the flute. He was comfortable soloing on the flute, not as a doubler as you see with many saxophone players but as a primary instrument. 

Eric practiced all the time. He was never without an instrument. He was always trying to hear some idea. He was always trying to play outside the changes but still focused on maintaining the song’s context so that the melody never sounded too far from his original concept. He was a very shy person who played very well. Eric never understood why he was famous because he just played the way he heard the music.

PG: Because Eric approached music in a freer way, do you feel working with him helped you when you were later part of Miles Davis’ Second Great Quintet as Miles was also freeing up musical structures? 

RC: No, I wouldn’t say that. I mean, there were four other guys in that group. We were all part of the contemporary music scene. I don’t really see a specific connection between my work with Eric and with Miles.

PG: Eric is far from the only artist with whom you have recorded more avant-garde leaning works. You are on Pharaoh Sanders’ Karma (Impulse!, 1969) and Sam Rivers’ Fuchsia Swing Song (Blue Note, 1965), both classics. You were part of Carla Bley and Michael Mantler’s Jazz Composers Orchestra. And you’ve recorded with Archie Shepp, Don Ellis, and Ken McIntyre, among others. One of the other groups you will peform with at your birthday concert is your longstanding Golden Striker Trio. While the trio has a more traditional sound, its instrumentation – specifically the lack of a drummer – suggests experimentalism. Do you see a connection between these more “out” projects and the trio?

RC: I think most serious players understand their music, whatever label they wish to put on it, has a history to it. And I’m sure those who fit into that description of historically aware musicians would be hard-pressed to say the influences of those who came before – whether Don Ellis or Jacki Byard or whomever – would not in some way color their music. 

I think those in that zone readily acknowledge that they are music historians. And as such, they are carrying the flag for the music which came before. That’s true whether they are influenced by Don Heckman or Ed Summerlin or Archie Shepp or Sun Ra’s band. It would be difficult for them to disprove any of their influences. 

I’m not playing like Tommy Potter or Gene Ramey, but I am certainly aware of what they did with Charlie Parker’s band or Miles back in the day. I’m part of that continued history. Whether I’m able to directly translate something from them into how I play, when I play, or what kind of bass I play, really varies. But the most important thing is being aware of the background of my instrument. That awareness undoubtedly enters into my music in some way.

PG: Have you ever sensed any divide between more straight-ahead music and more avant-garde music? 

RC: Well, look, it’s the same notes. 

PG: As someone who was on some of the most significant albums of both the 1970s – for instance, Freddie Hubbard’s Red Clay (CTI, 1970) – and those by the so-called “Young Lions” – Wynton Marsalis’ Black Codes (From the Underground) (Columbia, 1985) for one – did you ever ascribe the narrative that jazz somehow died after the 1960s?

RC: No, not at all. The newspapers died, the radio stations died, but the music survived and still lives.

Continue the conversation with Ron Carter here. 

More information on “For the Love of Ron – Ron Carter and Friends: 85th Birthday Celebration” can be found on Carnegie Hall’s website, where you can also purchase tickets to the event. 

More information on Mr. Carter can be found on his website.