At Heart: A Conversation with Fred Wesley on his Incredible Career and a Preview of his 2024 Newport Jazz Festival Performance

There are few people funkier than Fred Wesley. As James Brown increasingly turned from Soul Brother Number One into the Godfather of Funk, Fred was there. Heck, he was even Brown’s bandleader, not once but twice, each with very different bands. The earlier incarnation grooved hard and released powerful songs like “Say It Loud (I’m Black and I’m Proud).” But It was still smooth and polished; the musicians even wore suits. The second version – featuring the brothers Collins – sounded grittier, often more frenetic, and heavier, as seen on albums like Sex Machine (King, 1970). From there, Wesley traveled even further by connecting with the Mothership of P-Funk. While Brown’s second group kicked funk out of the ballroom, Parliament-Funkadelic shot it outside the earth’s orbit. While traveling the cosmos, the trombonist also stretched out on some of Bootsy’s seminal recordings. And then there are the fantastic recordings under Wesley’s own name – including the tight in-the-pocketness of groups like the Horny Horns. Suffice it to say, the trombonist is funk royalty. But there is more than meets the eye.

When you come right down to it, Wesley is a jazzman at heart. Where his longtime colleague Maceo Parker has described his own music as  “2% jazz, 98% funky stuff”, Wesley’s jazz quotient is at least somewhere in the mid to high double digits. The intricate arrangements he wrote for James Brown, George Clinton, and himself built upon both his improvisational ingenuity and the artful compositions of big bands. His love of jazz was forged as a child, listening to jazz records at home and, ultimately, playing with his father’s big band. He sought a career making jazz music, but fate seems to have intervened. Even so, his jazz bona fides are solid. Few others can say they have worked with Count Basie, George Benson, Ron Carter, and Geri Allen.

On Sunday, August 4, 2024, Wesley will give Newport Jazz audienc0es a unique opportunity to hear all of these sides of his craft. He will appear as part of Christian McBride’s annual Jam Jawn. The group – an ad hoc collective formed by the Festival’s Artistic Director – is practically designed to reveal the many sides of Wesley by combining with the groove of Steve Jordan and the elegance of Dianne Reeves. 

It was an honor to sit down with Funky Fred and address both his forthcoming Newport performance and some lesser-discussed aspects of his illustrious career. 

PostGenre: Do you remember your first time at Newport? 

Fred Wesley: At Newport, wow. I can’t remember exactly, but it must have been with James Brown. 

PG: James Brown’s 1969 performance.

FW: Maybe, yeah. I was with James Brown in ‘69, so that probably was my first time. 

PG: Do you remember much about that 1969 performance? 

FW: No, I don’t. You know that was fifty-five years ago, and I’ve done a lot of performances.

PG: Understood. But, as far as your time with James Brown, what do you feel was your biggest challenge while serving as his bandleader? 

FW: Just listening to him and trying to understand what he was talking about. Some things James would say would be completely ridiculous. And for me to keep the job, I had to agree with it. That was hard to do, but I did it. I wanted to keep the job because I was learning a lot from being with his band. I was learning how to arrange and how to produce. I’ve benefited greatly from being with James Brown because he allowed me to do things I had never done before. And so, while working with him was difficult, it was for a purpose, and the purpose was learning how to record, arrange, and produce music. 

PG: Do you think the difficulties of working with James impacted the group’s music, at all?

FW: I’m sure it did because I had to do some things he told me to do, and I didn’t agree to. But I did them anyway, and they turned out to be alright. For instance, for the song “Hot Pants,” we had a beat that I knew didn’t fit anywhere with the regular verses. But I did it anyway, and it turned out OK.  There were many things like that that James wanted me to do that I didn’t want to, but turned out OK. And I think that experience gave me a style.

PG: Some of those difficulties of working with James culminated in him firing you for standing up for other musicians in the group to get paid for performances they had previously done. But as he was forming his band in the early 1970s with [William] “Bootsy” Collins and [Phelps] “Catfish” Collins, he asked you to come back to the band, and you did. How do you feel the first time with him most differed from the second one?

FW: The first time, I was me. I decided that he had made me bandleader, and I was going to do things my way. Of course, that didn’t work well with James Brown. So he fired me. I didn’t really care that he did because I was moving to California anyway and going to try to find some work out there. When James offered the job back, I came in with the attitude that I would do what he said, try to make some money, and try to learn some things. Life was difficult, but it was fair. 

PG: Earlier in your life, you were in the Army. Do you feel that experience gave you some more structure that helped you when you were later James Brown’s bandleader? 

FW: Definitely. It definitely did. I learned how to play the trombone correctly while in the Army. I never did get it exactly right, but being in the Army, I learned the things that I needed to know to further my trombone experience. I had a great trombone teacher named Joe Phillips, who was a Navy guy. I first learned how to play in a big band within the Army. 

PG: Going back even earlier, as far as mastering the trombone, it was not your first instrument. You started on trumpet and then moved on to baritone horn before picking up the trombone. Do you think your career would have gone differently if you had stayed on the trumpet? 

FW: I’d say so, but who knows? Actually, I learned how to play funk from a trumpet player, Mack Johnson, when I was with Ike and Tina Turner. He played a funky trumpet with a wawa [mute]. I liked that sound a lot, so I tried to emulate him on the trombone. Especially when James Brown would ask me to do some seemingly impossible things, I approached them the same way I thought Mack would have done on trumpet.  And that’s kind of how I got my style, from Mack Johnson. 

PG: After college, but before joining the Army, you played with Ike and Tina Turner as a way to get out of Alabama. You did not plan on staying with them forever and instead venture more towards jazz. Was there ever a point where you said, “Hey, I think I’m going to focus heavily on funk and put jazz on the back burner,” or was it more of a gradual thing? 

FW: No, it was a gradual thing. I left Ike and Tina to go with Hank Ballard and the Midnighters because a lot of my buddies were playing with Hank Ballard, including William Gresham, who was my teacher at Alabama State. These guys were playing jazz and were with Hank. So I left to go with Hank to play jazz, which never happened over there but was the reason that I left town; to play more jazz.

PG: As far as doing both jazz and funk, while most people associate you with funk music, your roots are in jazz. Do you think having that jazz background influences how you approach funk?

FW: I’m sure it does because jazz is deep inside me. I’ve studied jazz all my life. I wanted to be a jazz musician. But James Brown came along, offered me a job, and I got involved with him.  Eventually, I became more and more involved with funk music. And, so, I became known as a funk musician. My jazz chops suffered a little because of James Brown. You have to keep your chops up in a good way to keep playing jazz. To play funk, you only need to be aware of the attitude and how you approach it. But I’ve always been a jazz musician at heart. 

PG: After James Brown fired you the first time, you moved to California and got an offer to join Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. You turned it down because the commute between California and New York would be too intense. How do you feel your career would have been different had you taken Art Blakey up on his offer? 

FW: Yeah, you know, I wonder about that myself sometimes. I don’t know, but it probably would have been different. Maybe I would have been as popular as J.J. Johnson or Curtis Fuller. I don’t know, but things definitely would have gone a different way. 

PG: After that second time with James, you joined Parliament-Funkadelic. You, Bootsy, and Maceo [Parker] were all with James before Parliament. 

FW: Well, it was me and Maceo. We joined Parliament together. Bootsy was already there with George [Clinton] when we joined. But it was a really happening thing when we all got together.

PG: Given James was very strict, and Parliament-Funkadelic was more…. open, was it a huge adjustment going from one band to the other?

FW: Right, Parliament was kind of loose. George told me to just give him whatever I had. I had free reign to do whatever I felt like doing. And I was making a lot of money doing what it was doing. I did all kinds of arrangements and all kinds of tunes. He either kept them or put them on his shelf, and they haven’t come out yet. There must be a ton of music somewhere in George Clinton’s vault that I did. Bootsy’s vault too, for the stuff I did in Bootsy’s band. There is tons of music. I’ve forgotten about a lot of it, but there was some really [great] stuff in there. And I know that to be the case because when I did it, I did it to be spectacular. 

PG: Music is only part of Parliament. There is also the significant stage theatrics – the spaceship, the guy running around in a diaper, and the rest. Did you ever get distracted by some of the stage activities while you were trying to play music? 

FW: [laughing] Yeah, it distracted me. But I still had to go out there anyway. What was going on on stage was a distraction while I was trying to play, but it was one that I got used to. I expected George to do pretty much anything. Same with Garry [“Diaperman” Shider], [Cordell] “Boogie” [Mosson], and the rest of those guys. I expected them to do whatever they wanted. And I did some of it with them. It was a real eye-opener to be with George Clinton. It was some of the most fun I had ever had in my life. 

PG: Going back to Newport, the Sun Ra Arkestra will also be performing there this summer. Given the shared Afro-futurist perspectives of both groups, do you see a connection between the Arkestra and the music you made with Parliament-Funkadelic?

FW: Actually, I played with Sun Ra one time in a free improv kind of thing. For Parliament,  I was with George Clinton from day one throughout the ‘70s. But they were doing sort of the same thing. George Clinton was more structured than Sun Ra, though. 

PG: After you left Parliament, you joined Count Basie’s band. Did it feel gratifying to finally do something more jazz-focused? 

FW: Yeah, it was. It was a real pleasure to play with that band and be among jazz musicians. They were interested in funk, too, so they knew who I was. But they approached music differently. I enjoyed myself very much with Count Basie’s band, but it didn’t pay well. It certainly didn’t pay rock and roll money like funk gigs, and by then, my family got used to that money. So, I had to leave. But I loved being in that band. I really did. 

PG: Even away from the Basie band, however, you were still making inroads into jazz. There is even an album of you with Ron Carter, Michael and Randy Brecker, Steve Gadd, Jon Faddis, Joe Farrell, and a bunch of other jazz musicians, though it sat unreleased for a long time. 

FW: Yeah, it is out as The Lost Album by The JB’s & Fred Wesley (Hip-O Select, 2011). David Matthews did a bunch of arrangements of my songs, some James Brown tunes, and some other tunes. He hired the Brecker brothers, Ron Carter, and the rest.  It’s got a lot of good tunes on it. If you enjoy my music, you will enjoy that album a lot. 

PG: On the funk side, since you were with James Brown, you have had many different albums and projects with Maceo Parker with groups like the Horny Horns and the JBs. Some of those experiences also featured Pee Wee Ellis, specifically the three of you worked together with the JB Horns. Why do you feel the three of you worked so well together? 

FW: I don’t know. The only reason I can see is that we had that James Brown experience together. We knew what to do, how to do it, and when to do it. I’m sure that has something to do with our togetherness. 

But, you know, Maceo was actually the leader of the J.B. Horns. We basically followed Maceo but knew where he was going and how he was going to do it. He would do something, and we would harmonize it. Or he would need something, and we would follow him. It was a real learning experience when I was with the J.B. Horns because Maceo was a great leader, and we were actually really good followers. 

PG: Jumping ahead a bit, you have led the New JBs for thirty years now. What do you enjoy most about having that group? 

FW: Oh, the group itself is phenomenal. We have Bruce Cox on drums, Dwayne Dolphin on bass, Reggie Ward on guitar, Gary Winters on trumpet, and Jay Rodriguez on saxophone and flute. It’s a great band, and we all enjoy playing together. I enjoy leading that group. They seem to listen to me and give me what they have and what I don’t have. They give everything they have to contribute. We just gelled together really well, and that’s what I enjoy about that band. 

PG: Circling back to Newport, your most recent performance there was in 2008 when you had two sets- one with Lettuce and the other with Soulive.

FW: Joining both groups came together by way of Eric Krasno. I did quite a few things with Lettuce in particular. It’s a really good band, and I have some great friends in it. We have had a lot of fun. 

PG: This summer, you will be part of Christian McBride’s Jam Jawn. What interested you in taking on that opportunity?

FW: Playing with Christian was the number one thing. Also, the rest of the group is incredible. I’m ready to do it. I like to play some jazz. I know they will want me to play some funk. I would love to play a tune or two of jazz, though I know they will also want me to play some funk songs. I’m happy to do that too. Anything I can do with Christian McBride will be a pleasure. 

PG: In general, what do you enjoy most about playing at Newport?

FW: What I like the most about Newport is all the people that you get to see. I’ve met many people at Newport. Part of that is just a function of it being a festival, a place where all musicians get together and can talk about old times and the music. That’s a pleasure in itself to just be with other musicians. 

It wasn’t Newport, but I even met Christian from a jazz festival. I was going to play at the Montreal Jazz Festival but was very sick that day. I don’t know what was wrong with me, but I was sick. Christian came to my room, and I met him there. He was interested in me because I had played with James Brown, and he was very interested in James Brown at that time. And we’ve been friends ever since. 

PG: As a final question, you released your excellent autobiography, Hit Me, Fred: Recollections of a Sideman (Duke University, 2002) more than twenty years ago. If you were to update it now, what would you add to it?

FW: Oh, I’d add quite a bit. My life now is different from what it was then. I am working on writing a new book that covers 2002 to now that should be out very soon. I’m halfway through writing it. I’m kind of dragging it out almost to the end. I hope it is out before I end, you know? But it’ll be out either before or after I leave this earth. 

You know, you asked me some hard questions. Some things were hard to explain, but you kind of dug it out of me, and I appreciate that you did. I look forward to seeing you at Newport. It’s going to be great. We’ll be giving you a great show, I guarantee it. 

Catch Fred Wesley as part of Christian McBride’s Jam Jawn at the Newport Jazz Festival on Sunday, August 4, 2024. Other members of the group include NEA Jazz Master Dianne Reeves, Steve Jordan, Russell Gunn, and Christian Sands. More Information can be found on the Festival’s website. You can learn more about Fred Wesley on his website.