Collision and Coexistence: A Conversation with Nicole Mitchell on ‘Bamako*Chicago Sound System’

Judeo-Christian theology tells the story of the Tower of Babel to explain the existence of different languages and cultures. In the Book of Genesis, a united humanity aimed to build a tower to the heavens until God struck them down and forced the people to have different tongues to confuse them and scatter them around the world. Comparative linguistics adopts a more evolutionary approach, arguing these barriers to communication come from changes in the circumstances of specific communities. The religious and secular perspectives, however, mutually point to a shared truth of linguistic separation between people across the globe. Despite these divisions, certain means of expression – music, for one – seem to magically transcend these barriers. However, even this area can be fraught with concerns of perceived cultural dominance. When two societies collide, how do you ensure the ideas of one do not overpower the other? It is the dedication to ensuring equal treatment between the music of Mali and Chicago-based avant-garde “jazz” that makes Nicole Mitchell and Ballaké Sissoko’s Bamako*Chicago Sound System (FPE, 2024) stand on its own.

Mitchell and Sissoko are hardly the first to explore the interrelationship between traditional West African music and jazz. Indeed, the art form born in New Orleans built itself upon the rhythmic roots of Senegambia and the West Central continent. To this day, both also still share an emphasis on call and response. However, as the historical paths of musical forms diverged, contemporary efforts to combine them have far too frequently felt forced. Griots playing the kora or balafon are often expected to adapt to the American conceptualization of swing. Jazz musicians are asked to stretch and sound “more African.” In both cases, how can one say there is true cross-cultural communication when one vision bends to another? Bamako*Chicago Sound System excels because it does not force any of the musicians from either culture to abandon their moorings but instead seeks to find a middle ground between the two camps that highlights the best parts of both. Like a pointillist painting, if one looks closely, one can see the distinct colors and distinguish between them, but approached more broadly, they form an overall beautiful picture. 

What’s more, the two masterminds behind the project do not look backward – despite the initial shared history of their music – to create something new. Although one in a long line of griots, Sissoko is distinctly forward-thinking in expressing guitar progressions on his kora. Mitchell, who often focuses on Afrofuturist themes in her works, brings the creative expansiveness of her longtime work with her evolutionary group, the Black Earth Ensemble. The flutist also provides lessons from her time with two powerhouse institutions of sonic breadth: the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians and the Art Ensemble of Chicago.

The result is tracks that explore African diasporic musical languages more broadly. Consider the funky “This Moment,” in which Mitchell’s bouncy flute line and Mankwe Ndosi’s R&B-infused vocals collide with a groove set by Sissoko’s kora and Fassery Diabate’s balafon. Or “Vulnerable,” where Jeff Parker’s desolate bluesy guitar parallels a laidback kora line. While longing vocals meet the slow dance of Jovia Armstrong’s drums. Overall, with the backdrop of a global political system that often thrives on separation and alienation, Bamako*Chicago Sound System is a potent reminder that the world is smaller than it seems. The individual and cultural differences that do exist should be celebrated, not minimized. Diverse inclusiveness can produce something far more beautiful than monolithic conformity could ever hope to create. 

PostGenre: You recorded Bamako*Chicago Sound System in 2017. Why did now, seven years later, feel like the right time to release it?

Nicole Mitchell: Well, this project started even earlier, back in 2014. Actually, the first collaboration I had with Ballaké was in 2013 when I invited him to sit in with the Black Earth Ensemble at the Manzoni Theater in Milan.  So, it has been a very long and slow-going project, though very meaningful to me. It moves slowly just because of all of the complexities involved. Resources are a big part of it. 

We originally had a wonderful opportunity to do a residency with Ballaké at Royaumont in France outside of Paris. There, we had several days to connect and put the music together. Then we did some tours. Two tours throughout France, mostly back in 2014. The plan was to have [Ballaké and the other West African musicians] come to Chicago in 2014. But that fell through because of complexities with visas at that time. So, the project sat there from 2014 to 2017. 

PG: What changed in 2017?

NM: We could pull everything together, including visas, by then. We were able to do so with support from the Hyde Park Jazz Festival and the MacArthur International Grant. It also took a lot of leg work on my end to bring together partners to support the project. But we were able to bring the musicians from West Africa to Chicago, and once there, we did some wonderful workshops in Chicago Public Schools, a performance, and the recording. As far as the recording, the next struggle was finding a way to release it. It needed to be done in a way in which both Ballaké and myself felt comfortable. There was originally another label involved back in 2014, but without going through all the details, it didn’t work out.

In general, between 2017 and now, I had a lot of life changes. My husband died. I moved across the country. The pandemic happened. A lot happened. But, to answer your question, I felt that now was a great time to release the record. I feel that we need to exemplify international collaboration and friendship right now. 

PG: How did you first connect with Ballaké, before he sat in with the Black Earth Ensemble?

NM: Basically, what happened was that I got a phone call from a friend of mine, anthropologist Alexandre Pierrepont. I don’t know how he had the connection, but he somehow opened the door for me to work with Ballaké. It was something I dreamed about happening, but I didn’t know how it would be possible and hadn’t pursued it previously. So, I was very excited about the opportunity and incredibly grateful to have it. The connection with Ballaké is very organic. He’s very open and innovative. He’s collaborated with musicians from all over the world, and those cross-cultural collaborations are important to him with his own practice. So, we were a good fit. 

PG: Before that first collaboration with Ballaké in 2013, had you previously played with a kora player?

NM: Never. And it’s something I had wanted to do. The music of Mali has always been a great inspiration to me. I didn’t know how I would ever have the opportunity to explore music from there. If you look at the history of these types of projects, you don’t see black women bandleaders often being in the position to have this type of opportunity. 

PG: Even the AACM seems predominantly male, at least in terms of who tends to get recognition outside the group, Amina Claudine Myers’ recent designation as an NEA Jazz Master notwithstanding. Tomeka Reid is working on a book specifically about the women of the AACM. As the first female president of the AACM, what do you feel you learned the most from that experience, and what was your most significant challenge in that role? 

NM: I would say that the biggest difficulty is probably one that comes when you have so many complexities within an equation. If you’re curating, for example, you have many considerations. You consider generational differences and adding diversity, including gender diversity. There is also the inclusion of local heroes. If you’re working with a festival or a venue, the organizers have their favorites, which are the people that they think are big names. But there will also be some local heroes who are not as well known but still deserve to be included and celebrated. Creating opportunities that fully embrace the whole equation is a very challenging thing. I was put in that position a lot as President of the AACM. 

And I think I did pretty well with it. For example, we collaborated with the Sons d’hiver Festival in Paris on a multi-year project of bringing musicians from the AACM there. It culminated with a performance with the Great Black Music Ensemble, the AACM’s large ensemble. It was exciting but also scary to bring together musicians who didn’t necessarily know each other and were from different generations and different locations to support one another. I also needed to advocate for musicians with the festivals and venues, who said they didn’t know or recognize an artist, and try to convince them the artist was very deserving. 

I know some people do that sort of work every day as their job. But for me, that was the beginning of that type of work. I always see leadership as collaboration. You work to see how you can include as many voices as possible as possible and need to solve problems when people aren’t agreeing. I think that’s the challenge of a collective when you have something that needs to be done. 

But it’s not like you’re the boss when you are president of the AACM. You’re just another person. Which is the way jazz music is. You may be a bandleader, but that doesn’t mean the other musicians don’t have a say because that’s not the culture of our music. The culture of the music is more democratic and more about inclusion, sharing, and dealing with challenges as a group. Those were some of the things that I think helped me become a stronger person. Sometimes, you do things that other people don’t like, and that’s OK as long as you remember to focus on doing what will benefit the whole as much as possible. Those were good lessons that I learned in that position. 

PG: Do you feel that view of collaboration as a form of leadership has also helped you as a bandleader?

NM: Probably so because not everyone approaches leadership in that way. 

PG: And tied to that focus on collaboration, how did the compositions come together for this project? Were you writing parts for the kora? Or were you building everything else, then giving Ballaké freedom to add his part?

NM: That’s a great question. We did not use written music for this project in the typical sense. I did write parts out for my musicians for everything that I wanted them to do. Ballaké and I then spent some time together one-on-one, where I would teach him melodies, and he would teach me some as well, and we would learn by ear with each other. After getting together as a whole group, we continued to learn by ear for everything we did. So, we would work out different parts on the kora based on what I played on the flute and vice versa. 

PG: What was your process for selecting the Chicago musicians for the recording? 

NM: Well, I wanted a contingent from the Black Earth Ensemble. That group’s personnel changes all the time. But we do have core members with whom I have done many projects. So, you can hear Mankwe [Ndosi] sing on Xenogenesis Suite (Firehouse 12, 2008) and Intergalactic Beings (FPE, 2010). I also work with other vocalists but thought she would be particularly great because she knows other languages and would support another vocalist who’s singing in Bambara, which she knew a little bit of, and French too. I chose Mankwe for her resilience, flexibility, and creativity. 

Joshua Abrams has been like a rock. He has been a pillar in much of my work, especially at that time. I knew he would love the experience and had an interest in this project. I knew he’d be great. 

When the opportunity to put together this project originally came, the assumption by the powers that be was that I would have Hamid Drake on drums. Hamid has been an amazing mentor and has performed with me on many important projects. But I wanted to give JoVia [Armstrong] the opportunity to be a part of this project. Not only do I like her, but she has an innovative setup with cajón, cymbals, and hand drums that’s very unique and super flexible. I knew her approach would work very well with the different ideas that the West African musicians would bring to the music and that it would be a lot of fun. 

The original guitarist for this project, Felton Offard, is based in Chicago. Many people are unfamiliar with his music, but he’s amazing. I also have a long-standing musical relationship with Jeff Parker. Felton ended up having a conflict with our last tour, and Jeff was available. I was very excited that he was. Jeff is also very busy, and I didn’t know if he would be free, but he was able to do the project. It was a real blessing. 

PG: In terms of pulling music together for Bamako*Chicago Sound System, over the years, several “jazz”’ musicians have collaborated with kora players. Herbie Hancock has recorded with Foday Musa Suso, as has Jack DeJohnette. Roswell Rudd has a Mali-focused album called Malicool (Sunnyside, 2002). Did you check these recordings when you were pulling together this project? 

NM: No. But there were albums by Regina Carter and Deedee Bridgewater that I did keep in mind. I loved those collaborations, and what was important to me was that we just brought ourselves and the idea of coexistence and collision of musical languages. It was important to me not to put the kora in the place of having to adapt and play jazzy. Or find a way to make the Chicago musicians sound more like those from Mali. I didn’t want to do that. What I love about this collaboration is that we have not done that. We’re both bringing compositions and learning from each other. We’re learning each other’s languages while leaving each other space to make our own expressions within the music. That was the approach I took. I would say it was also very informed by my project Mandorla Awakening, which is about intercultural collaboration and the ideas of collision and coexistence, but with musicians from Japanese musical traditions. The influence was philosophical, with no one trying to imitate anything that had been done before. I love that we have a repertoire that we built together organically. 

PG: The kora is a very old instrument, created in the sixteenth century. You have also been a part of the Art Ensemble of Chicago, where the whole idea is “from the ancient to the future.” Do you see a connection between that concept and Bamako*Chicago Sound System?

NM: Oh, definitely, because when the Art Ensemble says “from the ancient to the future,” it’s trying to take the traditions and music from the many cultures coming out of Africa and connect them with the idea of going beyond the boundaries of what has been done before. The group focuses on creating new languages, stretching our ears and minds, and playing every possible instrument. The key is curiosity while celebrating the legacy, connection, and continuum of the African diaspora through music. This project fits within that concept pretty well. 

PG: So, do you see a significant difference between some of your more science fiction-based works and this project? 

NM: Well, it’s funny because I have a song I didn’t end up putting on the album- we didn’t end up recording it – called “My Ancestors.”  It was probably the most political piece on the project. It asks a lot of questions about the African American experience of being cut off from our ancestors and not knowing the details of who, what, and where our ancestors were. This project celebrates the stories and music of generations and generations.

In some cultures, your name itself connects you with a specific artistic tradition. For instance, if your name is Sissoko, you know that you come from a long line of griots. Your family has been telling stories and messages through music for generations. But for African Americans, those connections are often lost. Mankwe sings a song on the album where she asks many very important questions about those things, while another singer, Fatim Kouyate, responds with her experience and how music ties into it. I think there is always going to be a thread that connects all of that. 

PG: One of your more prominent sci-fi-influenced works was Mandorla Awakening II: Emerging Worlds (FPE, 2017), which you mentioned earlier. That recording was noted as the second in a series, but you have not yet released the first. Is there any plan to do so?

NM: No, I never did release the recording. The first was a live performance that I would love to release at some point. Actually, I have so many recordings that are ready to be released. However, the way the record industry is now makes it challenging to decide how to move forward with some of these projects. It is hard to figure out how to best share them with people. I’m very much in question about all of those things right now. 

For example, you were at our performance at [the] Newport [Jazz Festival in 2017]. I have a mixed and mastered recording of that concert that I’ve been holding on to. I would love to share it, especially since it has been a while since a Newport album of Creative Music has been released. I think that is meaningful. But how do you navigate all of this terrain with today’s digital economy? That has caused me to pause a little.

PG: Understood. It seems like, beyond the sci-fi connection, there may also be a spiritual connection that runs through Bamako*Chicago Sound System. The press materials mention the work of Alice Coltrane, and you also did a tribute to her work back in 2007.

NM: Yeah, Alice Coltrane is a big influence on me, both sonically and philosophically. I try to reflect on the key lessons of her music, of being curious about spirituality and reaching out into different parts of the world to see that we’re all looking for the same things. We’re all looking for peace and belonging. Making music helps us to go within all of those things. I think it has become increasingly important recently to focus on those things. She was also very bold in her explorations. She challenged listeners with intensity, and she had no limit. I’ve been deeply moved by that. 

I know there’s a lot of talk lately about André 3000 but I think his releasing [New Blue Sun (Epic, 2023)] did help bring a new audience to Alice Coltrane’s music, or at least a curiosity to be able to listen to her music when maybe they previously didn’t have enough context to make sense of it. I think this idea of contemplative music – vulnerable music – that embraces human vulnerability is greatly needed right now. 

PG: And, perhaps tied to the spiritual element of your music, you are also a poet. Do you see poetry and music as coming from the same place? 

NM: Yes, definitely. For me, poetry came first. Every song has a story. Even if I don’t say what it is, every song I write has a narrative beneath it. Inside of it. What I try to do with music is to solidify those things. I feel that music is like nature. It can reflect, and that goes back to spirituality. We have all kinds of weather. We have storms. Sunny and hot days. Cold winters with snow and ice. All kinds of things happen, and some of them we enjoy. Some of them, not so much. But we endure all of the weather, and the fluctuations help us better appreciate when things are good. I feel that music has that power to reflect all that diversity of expression. 

‘Bamako*Chicago Sound System’ will be released on FPE Records on August 23, 2024. It can be purchased on Bandcamp. More information on Nicole Mitchell can be found on her website.