Reflections : A Conversation with Karriem Riggins on Jahari Massamba Unit’s ‘YHWH is Love’

The corporate-led division of music into genres ignored the reality of the music presented. This is perhaps no better seen than in the relationship between “jazz” and “hip hop.” Over the last two decades, many have written about the meeting of these two stylistic influences. This analysis, however, is incredibly misguided. Technically speaking, it is impossible to merge jazz and hip hop. They are both one and the same. Both originated from the same demographic – primarily Black, urban, young men. Both make novel use of rhythms and improvisation. Both stretched ideas of existing music, whether expanding chords, eliminating them entirely, or sampling someone else’s work. The historical record – jazz supposedly “died” in the same era as hip hop’s rise – also supports the position that the two supposed genres are one music. You can also hear that unity well on Jahari Massamba Unit’s sophomore release, YHWH is Love (Law of Rhythm, 2024). 

YHWH is Love is deliciously difficult to categorize. At times, as on the spacey “Rubato Love”, one would be excused for mistakenly thinking they stumbled upon some long-lost record Lonnie Liston Smith from the 70s. The tight grooves on “The Clappers Cousin”, “Seven Mile to Oxnard,” and “Anointed Soul” are unmistakably indebted to drum machines and sampled beats. The short interlude “E11even” suggests Sun Ra’s cosmic travels. Dedicating the album to God further brings in hues of spiritual jazz and gospel music. Each piece complements each other well, further cementing the connections between these allegedly different musical ideas.

Listening to YHWH is Love is a magical experience. This transcendent element is in large part due to the uncanny parallels between the duo’s artists, Madlib and Karriem Riggins. Both come from a line of great Black musicians. In Madlib’s case, it is his father, soul singer Otis Jackson, Sr., and his uncle Jon Faddis. Riggins is the son of Emmanuel Riggins, a gifted keyboardist. They are each also enamored with past jazz greats. One need only listen to Madlib’s work with Yesterdays New Quintet and his invasion of Blue Note Records or Riggins’ work with Roy Hargrove, Ray Brown, Mulgrew Miller, Betty Carter, and others. Both Madlib and Riggins are also established hip hop producers with impressive releases to their credit. And, perhaps most importantly of all, they adopt an equally expansive view of their craft, one dedicated to fully expressing themselves instead of forcing perceived genre norms. 

We sat down with Karriem Riggins to discuss the Jahari Massamba Unit, Ray Brown, Diana Krall, and Norah Jones. We also discuss the groundbreaking collective, the Soulquarians, of which the drummer should be considered an honorary member. In particular, we cover some of his time with one of the finest compositional minds of the third millennium – James Yancey, AKA J Dilla. 

PostGenre: This second Jahari Massamba Unit album is titled YHWH is Love, or put another way, “God is Love.” Where do you see the role of music when it comes to spiritual matters?

Karriem Riggins: Well for me, I always feel God is present in the music that I create and that I want to create. In large part, that is because music is healing. I’ve seen people healed through music. Music is therapy. I feel like it helped me while creating this record that the feeling of God was present in the music. Especially with the world in the shape it is in today. Focusing on God brought so many positive things out of me while I was creating. 

PG: What do you feel, then, most sets YHWH is Love apart from Jahari Massamba Unit’s prior album, Pardon My French (Madlib Invazion, 2020)? 

KR: I feel that a lot of the ideas we created for this one are a little more diverse. There is more of a hip hop element than on our last record. Of course, [Madlib and I] are pretty much both musical chameleons. We listen to and do everything. Since I like to listen to everything, I want all those diverse influences reflected in my music and certainly did on this album. 

PG: Do you see much of a distinction between these different categories of music like jazz and hip hop?

KR: Not at all. I don’t generally categorize anything into those names. I feel like my music is inspired by everything out there. Why limit it?

PG: While you are a hip hop producer, your jazz credentials are also impressive. For one, you were in Ray Brown’s last trio, before he passed. What do you feel you learned the most from working with him?

KR: I learned things from Ray both musically and in terms of business. 

I learned how to play arrangements and how to be punctual as far as letting the soloist or singer know where everyone is in the song, instead of playing in a way where people can get lost easily. I learned from him the ability to make the leader feel safe.

And on the business side, he taught me a lot about being a professional and starting a business. Things like paying taxes. I never really had any schooling that taught me about those things because I didn’t go to college. They don’t teach financial matters in high school and most colleges don’t show you how to be an entrepreneur either.

PG: Most people who did go to college also do not know about tax rules and filings.

KR: I suppose that is true. The education around managing your finances is shockingly inadequate. I’m grateful Ray taught me those things. That also applies to taking care of yourself with things like health insurance or having a retirement account. 

PG: Yeah, those are incredibly important things for everyone to do. As far as musically, however, do you feel it was your time with Ray Brown that got you working with Diana Krall and Norah Jones? While Norah has done some work with Outkast, neither’s music is particularly tied to hip hop. 

KR: My working relationship with Diana Krall came directly from my time with Ray. I met Diana when Ray was putting together an album featuring singers, including her. That was probably around 1998. But Diana and I stayed in touch since then. By the year 2005 or so, her drummer left and she gave me a call to see if I would join her. That’s when we started to work together. It’s been a great working relationship since. We are still working on stuff together, off and on. I feel blessed to know Diana. She’s another one of those artists who knows so much about music and its history. She is a great person to collaborate with. I have so much respect for her.

I met Norah through one of Diana’s assistants who also worked with Norah. And I ended up playing on a couple of songs on her album, Daybreaks (Blue Note, 2016).

PG: It is great to hear you on those tracks. Normally, Norah is playing with Brian Blade. Though he is fantastic, it is nice to mix things up sometimes and feature other artists too.

KR: Brian is incredible, man. He is one of my favorites. But I’ve enjoyed working with Norah. Actually, fairly recently, I sent her some things that I wanted to have her sing on on an album I’m releasing soon. 

PG: What more can you share about that forthcoming album?

KR: Eh, it is a little too early to say anything else.

PG: OK, no problem. So, in terms of the connections between “jazz” and “hip hop”, do you see your music as a continuation of what your dad did with Grant Green? [ed. note: Riggins’ late father, Emmanuel Riggins played electric piano with Green during the 1970s].

KR: Absolutely. In my music, you can hear reflections of all that my dad, Grant Green, and all of them have done. In a way, hip hop is under the umbrella of all of that music. But there are also so many different things that make hip hop what it is. It’s new because it’s forever evolving. Actually, it is that constant evolution that makes me love creating that music. You can create something new that hasn’t been heard before. Sure, many things have been recreated and embellished on over the years, but a lot of it is new territory.

PG: Related to that breadth in scope, do you feel that your role as a producer has shaped how you approach playing the drums or vice-versa?

KR: Yeah, for sure. When I record drums, I like to have different sounds. I use the same set but mix it all in a different way so things sound different. From a producer’s perspective, that diversity is what I’m looking for when I hear drums. And I try to implement that in what I’m doing.

PG: It seems many artists today are exploring the intersection of ideas from jazz and hip hop. Some people credit Roy Hargrove with opening up the doors to this trend. As someone who worked with Roy, do you agree with that perspective?

KR: Maybe. But when I worked with Roy, a lot of his music at the time was straight ahead. I feel that Miles [Davis] opened the door by bridging a lot of what he did when he was young with newer music incorporating drum machines. I feel Max Roach opened doors as well. There were a lot of cats doing it. But I feel like our generation was the one that embraced the records and sampling, which brought the music to a new level.

PG: Now, you met Madlib from working with J Dilla, right?

KR: That’s right.

PG: We could probably spend hours talking about Dilla. But do you have any favorite memories of your time with him?

KR: Oh, man. I was listening to Dilla’s music before I met him. And when I met him, it was like I was meeting one of the cats, someone like Ray Brown or Oscar Peterson. Dilla fully knew how to get things done, to execute ideas, on any instrument. He taught me a lot about production. He knew how to get musicians in the room to get a certain sound out of their instrument or a certain rhythm. 

Of course, his instrument was a drum machine. At the time drum machines were a new thing for me. He inspired me to buy my [Akai] MPC 3000, which has been one of my primary instruments since. 

PG: Have you been surprised by the influence Dilla has had on other musicians since his death? He seems to be one of those artists who, like Charlie Parker, was not on earth very long but immensely changed music during their short time.

KR: Absolutely. I feel like it’s a blessing because many of the great innovators who created sounds are next level. I feel like a lot of people don’t get it fully. I’m really happy that Dilla has touched music in the way he has. In younger musicians, I hear nuances that came from him. Even if some of the younger musicians don’t know who Dilla was, they are doing things that he brought into the music. He was great at bringing the little nuances, ghost notes, and certain other things that people did not really focus on before but now, thanks to Dilla, are incredibly relevant in music.

PG: In your time with Dilla, you even finished his album, The Shining (BBE, 2006) after he had passed.

KR: Yeah. Dilla and I had worked on it together and had the majority of it done when he died. I did add some finishing touches with artists that he wanted to get on some of the stuff that we recorded. We already had a good amount of music before he died but there were several different artists that he wanted to have featured on it and I reached out to the ones that he loved most.

PG: As far as your work on the album after his death, was it difficult finishing it in a way that you felt would be true to his vision when he’s not there to give any guidance?

KR: Oh man, I felt his spirit there the whole time I worked on it.

I got a call from him a few months before he passed. We were slated to go into the studio several times but his health was deteriorating to the point where he didn’t have the energy to go. In that call, he said to me, “Man, please help me finish this album.” I didn’t think he meant on my own. But I think he already knew he didn’t have much time left. And, so, I finished it because that is what he wanted.

PG: So, we have talked about Roy Hargrove and J Dilla, both of whom were in the Soulquarians. Staying with the Soulquarians, among other things, you have produced seven albums for Common, including his groundbreaking Like Water for Chocolate (MCA, 2000). You have also been in the trio August Greene with him and Robert Glasper. Do you feel you approach playing the drums differently in August Greene than you do Jahari Massamba Unit?

KR: I think it depends on the song. Every song is different. Stylistically, there is nothing that I have in mind until I sit down and play. And that leads us down the road for whatever we’re creating.

PG: And one last Soulquarian we should probably mention is Questlove. You were a producer on the Roots’ Phrenology (MCA, 2002). As a fellow drummer with similar musical interests as his, has Questove been much of an influence on you?

KR: Absolutely. He’s one of my favorite drummers. He’s still producing and his knowledge of music is so vast. He is one of my favorite people. And he has one of the greatest fills on the drums. He has an innovative sound.

And the Roots are my favorite hip-hop group. It’s amazing that they are still in a band and performing together. It shows unity to those musicians who are coming up and I love that aspect of people continuing to create beautiful things. I’ve learned a lot just being around Questlove and he’s a huge influence on me.

PG: Questlove has previously told several interviewers that, at first with the Roots, he was criticized for not sounding enough like a drum machine. Then when he started trying to sound more like a drum machine, he was criticized for not sounding enough like himself, so he ended up going back to his original approach. As someone who is also a drummer and makes use of drum machines, have you had similar struggles in how you approach the drums? 

KR: Not really. I know Questlove says that. I’ve heard him say it before but I am not so sure I agree. There’s a certain special thing that everybody has that can’t be reduplicated by a machine. I’m not sure Questlove actually sounded any differently than himself. To me, he still sounds like himself even when he probably thought he was sounding more like a drum machine. But, no, I haven’t run to the issue he is referring to. 

PG: Going back to the Jahari Massamba Unit, you first met Madlib twenty years ago. How do you feel the musical conversations between the two of you have changed most over the two decades?

KR: Well, early on, there wasn’t a lot of conversation. We just spoke through our music and our ideas. We sent ideas back and forth to one another.

But over the years, he’s made me spindles and spindles of CDs. There were about a hundred CDs on each spindle. They were all records he loves, and some of his more recent finds. And listening to those records let me into who he was and the type of stuff that he loved. I think that helped us along the way in trying to understand each other’s perspective of where we wanted to go with the music. I’ve learned a lot about him through just his love of music. And he’s so prolific. The love and respect that he has towards the music is inspiring.

PG: You mentioned you started by passing ideas back and forth. That seems to be how you still collaborate. You are not really in the studio much together.

KR: No, we hang out more than we work. I was recently an artist in residence at the Detroit Jazz Festival. Madlib, J Rocc, and I performed some of the Jahari Massamba Unit songs from Pardon My French. It was incredible to see the music come to the live stage. 

PG: Do you feel that YHWH is Love or Pardon My French would sound differently if you had spent more time in the studio versus the approach you take with the group?

KR: Absolutely. There are always two different perspectives on how to create. One thing that I can do on drums live can spark a new idea that will take something down another road. 

I love both approaches to creation. But the stuff you create in solitude can be a little more, I don’t know. I can’t quite put a word on it. But I love both perspectives and to be able to do both. I’ve loved studio recordings my whole life, but it is a special thing to be able to go in and get the sound that I want before I even pass it to Madlib. Then he gets the sound that he wants, and then we go straight to mixing.

PG: Where do you see Jahari Massamba Unit going in the future?

KR: In the future, we will, God willing, go more into the repertoire. As prolific as Madlib is, I’m also trying to push out many more ideas that we can use to create together. The last time I saw Madlib, he said that he already had another album’s worth of material to use. I want to tell our stories from a musical perspective, so we can be fully understood musically.

Jahari Massamba Unit’s ‘YHWH is Love’ is out now on Law of Rhythm. It can be ordered on Bandcamp. More information on Karriem Riggins is available on his website.