Sound World Exploration: A Conversation with Sara Schoenbeck

With its double reeds and complicated fingerings, the bassoon is one of the most difficult wind instruments to master. But for an artist dedicated to conquering the tool, great music can result. With its somehow equally mysterious and romantic tone, the bassoon provides tonal color unlike any other instrument. And while the bassoon has found itself in many different styles of music, most composers limit it to its mainstay; classical music. But not all artists are so confined. Sara Schoenbeck is one of a small handful of artists who have created an incomparable sonic environment built off of the instrument’s unique timbre. This is masterfully shown on the series of duets captured on Sara Schoenbeck (Pyroclastic, 2021).

To refer to her self-titled release as a debut album is accurate but, perhaps, misleading. While she has not previously issued any recordings as a leader, Schoenbeck has established a career performing with some of the top artists in modern creative music. Anthony Braxton, Wayne Horvitz, and Roscoe Mitchell are just three who have called upon her talents. Sara Schoenbeck builds upon these relationships – and others – to produce a beautiful work that is distinct from other recordings. From the otherworldly slow streams of sound that comprise her cover of Low’s “Lullaby” with Nels Cline to the more spaced out conversation with silence and Matt Mitchell on “Augur Strokes”, the album shows not only a wide range but a path through Schoenbeck’s expansive sonic world. We sat down with Schoenbeck to discuss the new album, her career thus far, and the influences of those at the front of microtonal music and who have created their own compositional languages.

PostGenre: You have been involved with various projects over the past few decades but Sara Schoenbeck is your first album as a leader. Why wait until now to release your debut as a leader? 

Sara Schoenbeck: That’s a good question.  

To be honest, I’m not someone who enjoys the limelight. I’m much more of a collaborator. The idea of putting things out under my own name hadn’t spoken to me before this project. Generally, I just love supporting other artists. If I’m in an orchestra, I would want to sit second bassoon. If in an ensemble, I want to be supporting other players. I have never really seen myself as someone to put things together and be a bandleader.           

PG: Why did you decide to make the album a series of duos?       

SS: In large part that comes from the fact that I tend to like the quieter aspects of the bassoon. There’s a texture that emerges when you play very quietly and it is easier to achieve that sound with a smaller group. I also really love the transparency and intimacy that come out in the music during a duo performance. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy larger ensembles; I do and have been in many of them. But I wanted my own offering to be intimate, transparent, and quiet, and that is why I chose to do the album as duos.  

Also, as you mentioned, I’ve worked with several different artists before and since this is my first record out on my own, I loved the idea of having the album include a lot of people I’ve played with over the years. I purposely selected artists that I feel share a musical language with me or people that I respect a lot. So, my duo partners are people I either have an intimate playing relationship with or that I revere.   

PG: Yeah, for instance, you have duets with Harris Eisenstadt and Wayne Horvitz and have performed with both for a long time.  

SS: For sure. And Peggy [Lee] too. Each of my duo partners for this project was carefully chosen. 

PG: With that in mind, it would be interesting to go through your relationships with some of your collaborators. But, first, let’s go back to the beginning. When did you start playing the bassoon? 

SS: I first played the bassoon when I was in the 6^th grade. I went to public school and, back then, you could play any instrument you wanted as part of your music class. I began on the clarinet but felt like too many people play clarinet and wanted to play something no one else did. That desire led me to the bassoon.  

PG: At what point did you decide to bring the instrument into more experimental music and not the traditional route of only classical? 

SS: I love classical music, but even at a young age, I was always interested in more experimental music. So, it wasn’t that strange for me to move into those areas. In high school, I worked on figuring out multiphonics and exploring my own sounds on the instrument. By the time I was in college at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music, I became very interested in contemporary Western classical music. There is so much improvisation involved in that kind of music and so, that interest in contemporary classical led me to improvise.  

PG: Do you see much of a distinction between contemporary classical and avant-garde jazz? 

SS: It’s interesting you ask that because I used to always think there was one, but I think they are much more connected now. When I first became interested in contemporary classical music and avant-garde jazz, I saw a huge difference between the two. At the time, 1990 or 1991, I was playing a lot of written works from composers. Obviously, this is a gross overgeneralization, but I often felt that the relationship between my ideas and the composers was very one-sided. I put so much work into trying to make the composer’s ideas become a sonic reality but would rarely find composers, in turn, championing my instrument. That was certainly not the case with everyone, but many composers seemed like they didn’t even bother to learn about the idiosyncrasies and traits of the the bassoon.  

The realization of that disparity led me to become more interested in improvising. It felt like improvising gave me both worlds. While I could be influenced by contemporary composers, I would also have an outlet to champion my own voice without feeling like my instrument is being limited in some way, especially by someone who didn’t take the time to understand my instrument.  

Today, really this past decade, there has been a different kind of respect given to improvised music than in the past. There are more contemporary music players looking at the avant-garde jazz world. I think academia is respecting improvised music in a way that it wasn’t in the early ’90s. There is overall less of a hardline between those worlds. It seems that improvisation is a much bigger part of training and academia, in large part because of people like Roscoe Mitchell, Anthony Braxton, Vinny Golia, Joe Morris, and Wadada Leo Smith; people who were bringing this music to jazz studies and contemporary Classical programs.  

PG: The bassoon is often seen as one of the hardest wind instruments to master. Do you feel like the more complicated nature of the instrument makes improvisation more difficult? 

SS: I guess it just depends on what one means by improvisation. If one means soloing over bebop-like chord changes, I find that very hard. Paul Hanson and Michael Rabinowitz can master that kind of facility but, while I deeply respect it, it is not passion or in my technical wheelhouse. 

But where I’m coming from, the instrument has a huge range that allows you to do things that are, in a way, singularly the bassoon’s specialties. I think the instrument lends itself to a sound world exploration with a focus on extended technique, microtones, and multiphonics. That is certainly the area I have explored in my music. At this point, I unapologetically play my own way.  

PG: How much did Johnny Reinhard influence you in your exploration of microtones? Noticeably “Sand Dune Trilogy” is dedicated to him. 

SS: Johnny has been a pretty big influence on my music. The first time I heard Johnny Reinhard was on an album I had checked out of the library at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music while I was an undergraduate student there. The album was Johnny performing a [Ivan] Wyschnegradsky song for cello and piano. It was a quartertone piece. And it just flipped me out. I couldn’t believe it. It was one of the most beautiful things I had ever heard.  Hearing that album led me to check out microtones on the bassoon. But there was not a lot of information out there about doing microtones on the bassoon.  

Later, when I was in my graduate studies at Cal Art, Johnny came to the school and did a whole clinic.  He worked with me one on one on microtones and extended techniques, which was great. And we kind of kept the relationship going since then. And when I still lived in LA, I came out and played at the American Festival of Microtonal Music one summer. So, working with him definitely got me underway in exploring microtonal music.  

PG: “Sand Dune Trilogy” finds you with Nicole Mitchell. Do you see a connection between her as a flutist and you as a bassoonist in terms of integrating instruments more common in classical music into the creative music sphere? 

SS: In my mind, Nicole can do no wrong. She’s such a killer musician. She is so technically proficient but at the same time just so soulful. She has her own unique sound. I first met Nicole when we played together as part of the woodwinds section in Anthony Braxton’s 12(+1)tet. She and I definitely were a smaller duo exploring within the context of the larger ensemble. I think this was natural in part due to the origins of our instruments. 

PG: “Sand Dune Trilogy” isn’t the only song on Sara Schoenbeck dedicated to an artist focused on microtonal music. You also dedicated “Anaphoria” to Kraig Grady.  

SS: I started playing with Kraig Grady before Johnny. Kraig builds his own percussion and barred instruments and has re-tuned pump organs to play in just-intonation. When I was playing with him, I worked on fingerings to match the pump organ perfectly. It was a good study and gave me a deep dive into playing microtonally and improvising microtonally. The opportunity to explore microtonal music makes one feel like you can move away from standard fingerings giving you a different kind of flexibility to your finger technique. There is a multitude of ways to play an instrument and whether through different fingerings or tone color you don’t have to limit yourself to one way of playing.  

PG:  Do you see a parallel between the uniqueness of Grady’s self-created instruments and the uncommonness of your bassoon in the creative music sphere? 

SS: Yes! That is a great observation.  

I do think that there is a connection between his instruments and the bassoon. Kraig basically created his own world. He created his own island, his own instruments, his own puppets as part of shadow puppet theater, and he wrote his own microtonal music. Ultimately, he has created a completely unique space for himself. I often feel that I’m lucky because the uniqueness of my instrument in creative music allows me to carve out my own unique space within the music world.  It’s nice to just be able to do one’s thing with a little less competition. You focus more on the music sound world you are creating for yourself. Don’t get me wrong, I  still make music that makes others happy and that celebrates the contributions of other artists. But, ultimately, the uniqueness of the instrument invites me to express myself.   

I think Kraig saw a parallel between his instrument and the bassoon as well. I think Kraig has been drawn to the bassoon well before I came along. Before I lived in Los Angeles, Kraig was working with one of my inspirations, Rufus Olivier. Olivier was one of my teachers in San Francisco and is the principal bassoonist in the San Francisco Opera and the San Francisco Ballet. 

PG: Speaking of the San Francisco Opera. You dedicate “Absence” with Mark Dresser to Marcuselle Whitfield. She was part of the San Francisco Opera as well, correct? 

SS: Marcuselle had just begun playing with the San Francisco Opera after finishing her degree.  We were in school together at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music and she was a wildly talented musician. She was also a very close friend. The fact she was a bassoonist made us even closer. She was only 28 when she died of spinal meningitis. I was overwhelmed with sadness when she passed and wrote “Absence” as an outlet to get my feelings on her death on paper.  

PG: So far you’ve discussed Johnny Reinhard and Kraig Grady. To mention another big figure who has carved out their own musical space, “Chordata” finds you in duo with Roscoe Mitchell. How did that come about? 

SS: Roscoe has been a hero of mine for many years. I started listening to his music when I was a senior in high school. I was initially drawn to his concept of low and his use of unusual instruments. The first time I got to play with him was when I was performing with the S.E.M. Ensemble and we played one of his pieces. Through that process, I got to know him better. At some point I told him how much I had wanted to improvise with him and when the ensemble played “They Rode for Them,” he asked me to be an improvising soloist on one of the movements. 

PG: There are Youtube videos of the two of you playing not only “Chordata” but another improvised piece. That track though didn’t make it to the album. Is there anything else you’ve recorded as part of the creation of Sara Schoenbeck that hasn’t been released? 

SS: I recorded not only the pieces which made the album but probably an additional 3 or 4 improvisations with each musician. Some of those are different versions of each piece that made it onto the album but others are completely different from what ended up on the album. Like any recording session, there is a fair amount of unreleased music that no one else gets to hear. [laughing]. 

PG:  You don’t plan to ever release it? 

SS: I don’t know. That’s an interesting idea.  

PG: To mention two other large figures, you have also previously worked with Anthony Braxton and Butch Morris.  

SS: Like Roscoe, both Anthony and Butch are people who have created their own compositional language.  That creation of a language is in itself really exciting. It gives you a better understanding of how you can relate to music and communicate with the music. I’d also like to add Wadada Leo Smith to that group of figures as I had studied with him. Also, Henry Threadgill, who I started playing with him right before the pandemic. 

PG: What was the project you did with Threadgill?  

SS: We played at the Whitney for a new work by David Hammons: Day’s End. This spring I will be part of a large ensemble recording project of Henry’s.  

PG:  Silence plays a central role in the song “Augur Strokes” with Matt Mitchell. What are your thoughts on silence as a compositional tool? 

SS:  I love that Matt wrote the song to use space as a third voice. Silence can be an amazing and powerful voice in written music and improvisation.  

One of my goals in making the album was to have the songs split into three groups. There would be three songs I’ve written, three pieces written by others, and three improvised pieces. I love Matt’s compositions and wanted to have some of his included on my record. So, I asked him to write something and he composed “Augur Strokes.” At that time, he was heavily exploring the use of space in music and that definitely comes out in the recording. 

Another goal I had with the album was to make sure there was an improvisational element with each piece, even if it is just a small part. One of my favorite things is written music that involves a lot of improvisation with the language of each influencing one another. “Sugar” with Robin Holcomb is the most through-composed piece on the album. 

PG: What was the inspiration behind covering the indie rock band Low’s “Lullaby” with Nels Cline? 

SS: Low’s sort of slowcore music is very much like my concept of the bassoon. I have always really loved slow-moving pieces and that feeling of time being stretched. It’s part of my own aesthetic and how I write music. I think that the bassoon was built to play music that is low, slow, and emotional and that lines up wonderfully with Low’s music. As I got more into Low, I wanted to do a whole album of covers of the band’s music. I decided to begin this with a cover of “Lullaby.” I asked Nels to work with me on it because we’ve worked together for decades and he’s fantastic. He’s also friends with the members of Low, so there’s an additional level there. 

PG: Nels is using pedals on the instrument. Do you use any effects on the bassoon or is it entirely acoustic? 

SS: I don’t use pedals much. I feel like I am a pretty low-fi person. I do have a pickup that is drilled into one of my bocals (the pipe that leads to the reed). I also have a volume pedal and a reverb pedal, but that is it. Over the years, I have wanted to get more involved with pedals and more electric sounds. But what fascinates me more is how to sound electric or industrial while staying acoustic. For me, It’s about creating that sound and feel without needing to use the additional tools. 

Sara Schoenbeck will be available on November 26, 2021, on Pyroclastic Records. It can be purchased on Bandcamp. 

More information on Sara can be found on her website.