Conduit : A Conversation with Todd Clouser on The Mexico City Experiment

The fifth outing in Ropeadope’s Experiment series is markedly different from its predecessors. While all releases to date adopt a general ethos of giving maximum freedom to its participants, an ad hoc collection of those from the host city, prior output has primarily emphasized a particular native subsect of music. The Philadelphia Experiment (Ropeadope, 2001) underscored Philly soul and R&B, while The Detroit Experiment hammered home the Motor City’s electronic leanings. In some sense, guitarist Todd Clouser’s The Mexico City Experiment (Ropeadope, 2023) builds upon the City of Palaces’ history of avant-garde exploration. But, to be more accurate, the work drops listeners off in North America’s second-largest metropolis with only a sonic map for navigation. 

The album capitalizes on the fact that, as the first Experiment to go overseas, listeners may initially find themselves a bit disoriented. Its music turns listeners down one calle to encounter the calls of street vendors (“Bored Folks”). Down another, a parade (“Interludio”). And, throughout, bustling traffic (“Jarocho Street”). Sure, there are stylistic benchmarks along the route. “De Buche” is a funk tune at heart while “Talking Mexico City” exhibits screeches and free blowing by Mexican free jazz legend Germán Bringas. But the album uses genre precepts primarily to provide texture rather than force the music into limiting categories. The flexible use of stylistic notions also reflects Mexico City’s role as a cultural melting pot where influences from indigenous cultures, Africa, and Europe – particularly Spain – often merge and blur.

The blending of musical approaches is also inherently in line with Clouser’s prior works. With his group, A Love Electric, Clouser has removed bifurcating lines between rock, jazz, blues, and spoken word. He’s also worked with compatriots – including John Lurie and John Zorn – similarly untethered to genre. 

Clouser’s relationship with Mexico City also provides an additional depth to The Mexico City Experiment lacking in prior Experiments. Christian McBride and ?uestlove were Philly-born and raised. Same with Greg Spero and the Windy City. But Clouser spent the early years of his life over two thousand miles away from his city of choice. Some may be quick to write off his perspectives, as a transplant, on Mexico City, but this is short-sighted. Sometimes one can find new insights in the stories of one who chose to abandon the familiarity of home out of love for another locale. In a way, one can see Clouser as a musical Tocquevellian for South of the Border. As such, he reveals the beauty and wonder of a megalopolis far too overlooked by many Americans in discussions of the great international jazz hubs. We sat down with Clouser to discuss his ties to Mexico, the birth of The Experiment, and more. 

PostGenre: You are originally from Minnesota.

Todd Clouser: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

PG: But you ended up moving to Mexico to teach.

TC: Yep, that’s kind of how it started. A long time ago, I went on a tour that brought me to Mexico to perform. I was only supposed to stay in Mexico for a short while but I met a few musicians, and a teaching job came up at a school in Los Cabos. The teaching job was kind of the anchor that got me to Mexico. I taught for a few years in Los Cabos as I built my thing in Mexico City. 

PG: What do you feel most sets the Mexico City area apart from, say, Minneapolis musically?

TC: Minneapolis is beautiful and a great American city, but Mexico City is massive. Over 21 million people live here. It’s chaotic and unordered in a way that is simultaneously inspiring, liberating, exciting, and surreal. Moving there was a big shift for me, and it continues to be incredibly exciting.

PG: Was underrecognition of the music scene there what inspired you to start The Mexico City Experiment? 

TC: Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. I’ve worked with Ropeadope and [label CEO] Louis [Marks] for many years now on several different projects. We even launched Ropeadope’s Sur label. I have been9 a fan of the Experiment series from way back. I was probably finishing high school when The Philadelphia Experiment (Ropeadope, 2001) came out, and I’ll never forget that record. When I saw that they were relaunching the Experiment series with The Chicago Experiment (Ropeadope, 2022), I wrote to Louis and asked, “What do you think about a Mexico City Experiment?” It seemed like a great time to do it. It also seemed like if we didn’t do it right now, someone else would eventually do it because things are really happening in Mexico right now.

PG: Mexico City also has a deep history when it comes to jazz. Some historians have even claimed that some musicians originally thought to be Cuban that played in New Orleans with people like Sidney Bechet were Mexican.  

TC: Right. It was the existing scene at the time I moved there, more than the past, that attracted me to Mexico City initially. But the history seemed to provide a ton of opportunity to be a sort of a conduit between scenes in the US and Mexico. 

The scene in Mexico City is incredible. There are more great academic programs now than when I moved to Mexico, and more great musicians coming out of those programs. There is also a wild and incredible free jazz and noise scene that I love to grab from musically. 

In Mexico, a lot of cumbia music also often gets fused with jazz or creative music. I think that combination comes largely from the fact that the language of improvisation is fundamental to so many different types of Mexican music, from son jarocho to cumbia and many kinds of dance music. You can jump into many different styles that are happening pretty quickly. If you’re willing to go there.

PG: Since you mentioned people fusing different types of music, do you feel there is something that makes it more likely for people in Mexico to be a little bit open towards mixing different styles of music than in the US?

TC: I think so. A native Mexican musician may be a little more aware or sensitive to the boundaries around certain scenes or genres of Mexican music than I am. But I don’t see musical boundaries as readily, especially in the city. Mexico City is kind of wild and massive. However, even as big as the city is, there is an element of Mexican society where I think people feel more comfortable leaning on each other at times. I think that sort of spirit filters in the music scene. At least in my case, I found it really invigorating and fun and pretty easy to jump into different scenes, different bands, and different collaborations all the time.

PG: Perhaps related to the more expansive view of music is The Mexico City Experiment’s use of spoken word poetry. What was behind your decision to add this element to the music?

TC: Yeah, you know, using the spoken word is just something that I started doing. We have this band called A Love Electric. It was kind of a rock band but started as more of a jazz band before becoming more rock-focused. The use of vocals is something that came up naturally when I was working with that group. With poetry, I don’t have to feel like a singer but can still include vocals. I love poetry and the written word and using poetry. Now using poetry in my music is something that happens pretty naturally. 

PG: Do you feel your process for composing for A Love Electric – in its various forms – differs from your process for The Mexico City Experiment?

TC: I think this project is about laying out general maps for people to express themselves and manifest themselves within a looser structured composition or a vibe. A Love Electric and some other projects, by contrast, are generally more song-oriented or more compositional in a way that’s a little more regulated or with clearer intention. 

I kept things more open with The Mexico City Experiment partly because of the other musicians. The drummer, Orestes Gomez, is a Venezuelan guy who’s been in Mexico for a good amount of time. You don’t want to, or at least I didn’t want to, tell him where to go musically. He can reach into this bag of incredible sounds that you can’t quite pin down to a particular style or idea. The music is better if you give him more freedom to figure out what to do when the moment is right. 

PG: The decision to keep the music more open would seemingly make your selection of band members even more important than if you were working on more thoroughly composed pieces. How did you go about selecting the band for The Experiment?

TC: I pretty much know everyone on the album from existing relationships that I’ve had, but I haven’t had a band with them. That approach seemed in line with the spirit of the Experiment series. I wanted to get different people with pretty unique voices that can use the language of jazz or improvised music. I wanted to write some tunes, provide some maps, and then see what takes place.

So, Orestes is a drummer that I greatly admire, but he was also actually my roommate for a short time in Mexico City. We didn’t play together often, but I was around him and saw how he worked. I always wanted to record with him.

Jeronimo Gonzalez, the bass player, also plays jarana. He has a deep connection with traditional Mexican music. Jeronimo is also a great hip-hop producer. He was a co-producer for Experiment, and we bounced ideas off each other leading up to it.

I’ve known [Keyboardist] Erik Deutsch for a long time. He has been in Mexico City for several years. He’s an incredible musician.

Our saxophonist, Germán Bringas, is a Mexico City free jazz legend. He has been making free improvisation-based music for a long time; long before anybody in Mexico knew what free jazz was. He also has this club in the south of the city named Jazzorca café. It is open only once a week and always presents free jazz; completely improvised music. Germán’s an amazing guy, an incredible musician, and I deeply respect him. It was fun to pull him into this project and, hopefully, turn people on to what he does and make them hip them to Mexico City’s free jazz scene.

PG: One thing that stands out about the group is that half its members – you, Orestes Gomez, and Erik Deutsch – are not native Mexicans. Prior Experiments seemed to emphasize musicians born and raised in their respective cities. Do you feel like immigration is an important part of the music scene in Mexico City?

TC: I do. In Mexico City, there is currently a huge influx of artists, of all kinds, from all over the world who are trying to make the city their base. There are several reasons artists move to Mexico City. There are many people to work with. It’s a little more affordable. There are a ton of venues. I think more people now are going down to Mexico City than ever.

I put a lot of thought into the issue that I am the leader of the Mexico City Experiment and am not a Mexican. In the end, I’ve been in Mexico for many years now and am trying to be as sensitive and inclusive as possible. I am just trying to create different opportunities through my organizing, writing, and getting people together, in which I can share a little bit of what’s happening in the city. The record’s probably not representative of Mexican jazz in a broader sense if there is such a thing. But I think we have been able to share a little bit of the spirit of what’s going on in Mexico City today. 

PG: Do you feel that you are not a native Mexican gives you a different perspective than somebody who has spent their whole life there?

TC: I think inevitably, you can’t get away from that. I’ve tried to fully immerse myself, not just in the city but in the country of Mexico more generally. I’ve been fortunate to tour all over the country and work with people from the mountains of Oaxaca to those from Tijuana. I’ve worked with people from different musical traditions and jazz musicians from all over the country. I feel like I have a decent understanding, as much as an outsider can, of things that are happening in Mexico in the creative music scene. But I’m also not Mexican. I didn’t grow up hearing the same tunes or living in the way many musicians I work with did. I think there’s always going to be some distance there.

PG: But you have also contributed to assisting young Mexican musicians. Could you share a little about Music Mission?

TC: Sure. Music Mission is a 501(c)(3) non-profit based in Minnesota that I started about eight years ago. I had previously visited a music school called CECAM in the indigenous mountain town of Tlahuitoltepec, Oaxaca, to give a workshop. What I saw at the school was so inspiring. There is this depth of tradition with young people playing their traditional music at such a high level. They were also mixing things like symphonic music with their traditional music. Theirs was a story I wanted to share with more people. I also wanted to help with their program. I imagined a lot of other people would want to help as well.

So, I started reaching out to people back home in Minnesota to see if we could generate some support for the school. We were able to donate some instruments and other things to the school. As I continued to run into more and more communities in Mexico that could benefit from that kind of support, I began to formalize the process and turned Music Mission into a nonprofit. Today, we do educational initiatives. We’ve provided scholarships for some students in Mexico to study at Berklee [College of Music]. It’s become a cool thing that we’ve been able to do.

PG: In a way, it also circles back to when you first taught in Mexico. But what do you feel you have learned the most since you moved to Mexico?

TC: I feel like I’ve grown by leaps and bounds as both a musician and a person by living in Mexico and being exposed to its music, culture, and the general life experience of being down there. I deeply respect Mexican culture, which is very vast. I feel indebted to Mexico.

The Mexico City Experiment will be available on Ropeadope Records on June 9, 2023. It can be purchased on Bandcamp. More information on Clouser can be found on his website.