Peaks and Valleys: A Conversation with Michael Leonhart (Part One)

Sometimes the most complicated things in life are those that appear deceptively simple. We all understand, at a surface level, our emotions. We learn, from an early age, what it means to be happy, sad, or angry. But the reality is that these sensations are often far more complex than they seem. While we all can categorize grief as sadness, affective science tells us it is actually composed of five parts- denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. Not all of those components are “sad” in the sense most people think of that word. Relatedly, throughout history, artists have composed music that focuses on the depression element of grief but seldom do works encompass the entirety of the emotion. The Michael Leonhart Orchestra’s The Normyn Suites (Sunnyside, 2022) is different; it encompasses all facets of the emotion.

More than just languishing dirges across the album’s two suites, Leonhart takes a broader perspective of the emotions stirred by his loss of a beloved family pet. “Shut Him Down” and “Anger” are funky, with the latter expressing an appropriate level of fury. The gorgeously haunting “Catharsis” with Bill Frisell slides between sadness and building towards acceptance. The lush strings of “Unconditional Love” underscore the purity of the relationship one has with a pet. And, from the presence of Leonhart’s parents, sister, wife, and son on the album to Joshua Redman recording on his own father’s horn for the first time, the importance of family remains a recurring theme throughout.

In many ways, Leonhart’s Orchestra is the ideal organization to dive deep into the complexity of human emotions. The Orchestra is the same band that examined the nebulous nature of romantic love on Nels Cline’s Lovers (Blue Note, 2016). Leonhart himself has an eclectic background that gives him many colors to work with, whether his 25-year association with Steely Dan, his scoring of Red Dead Redemption 2 (Rockstar, 2018), or working with Elvis Costello (who also appears on The Normyn Suites). 

We sat down with Leonhart to discuss The Normyn Suites and the meaning of love and loss.

PostGenre: You dedicated The Normyn Suites to your late dog and her life. What can you share about her?

Michael Leonhart: Well, I married my best friend, Jamie. Jamie and I wanted to have kids, but I’ve always kind of unapologetically been a self-involved dreamer. That’s something that I’ve tried to work on. So, we got Normyn, a mini Dachshund, essentially, as a dry run for becoming parents to a human child. Our son is now 12 and a half. We always wanted to start with a dog. I quickly discovered that a dog was a great way to get ready to have a human child. I was ready to do anything for this little dog. The experience awakened the dad part of my personality. 

Normyn would also always come to recording sessions with me.  She was there for everything from soundchecks to when I was working on producing Donald Fagen’s album [Sunken Condos (Reprise, 2012)]. Normyn, why we named her that is a whole other story, was kind of my wingman. I also wound up learning a lot about people from how they interacted with her. Some people I worked with would ask to take her for a walk and others would almost step on her, not even noticing she was there. Whether they would even be aware she was there was fascinating. 

When Normyn got older, I started dealing with the fact that she was not going to be around forever. Her death started a new chapter in my life. I went back and forth on whether I wanted to write an album that addresses the loss of a pet. I didn’t want to be the guy that writes an album mourning over their dog that died. It is a simple fact that usually, dogs don’t outlive their humans. But, at the same time, I knew that her passing was a huge part of my life and brought about emotions I hadn’t quite felt before. My experience with Normyn was something larger than just an animal dying, it was about caring for someone else and living life for more than just myself. It’s about opening myself up to being vulnerable and experiencing life when you know that it’s not forever and permanent. I knew that the idea of basing the album on the loss of Normyn would be more than just telling her story or my time with her. Instead, it would have to take a broader view on love, loss, and fear. Once I realized that I would focus on the underlying emotions I experienced from Normyn’s death, I jumped into making the album. Putting together the album ended up being a very healing thing for me. 

PG: With the death of a pet, you lose a beloved family member. Because the Coronavirus killed over six million people, many people lost a loved one in the past year or two. Do you think they will feel a particular connection with The Normyn Suites’ emphasis on loss and recovery?

ML: Well, I composed most of the pieces on the album before the pandemic. Normyn died in September 2018, and COVID did not become widespread until late 2019 and early 2020. When things started to shut down in the US in March of 2020, I realized how crazy the timing was in reference to the album. 

The music I wrote for the album is inherently human. It’s about love, loss, and learning to love. Those feelings apply regardless of whether we are talking about a dog or a blood relative. Sometime after Normyn died, my wife and I asked our son if he wanted to consider getting a new dog. But he just couldn’t bear the thought of losing another pet someday. We gave him some more time and, eventually, he was willing to open himself up again to loving another pet, even though it too would not live forever. The situation made me think more about what it means to love. Why would anyone open themselves up to loving another creature that may one day leave them? That thought process is what is so interesting about both love and loss; if we shut ourselves down from living and feeling, we protect ourselves to a certain extent, but we also miss out on a key part of life. 

PG: On the issue of loved ones and family, your mother Donna sings a wordless vocal part on “Acceptance.” And your father, sister, wife, and son contribute to the recording as well. And, on “Shut Him Down”, Joshua Redman plays his father’s saxophone for the first time on record. Were these conscious choices on your part to further underscore the album’s messages on love or just coincidence?

ML: It’s a little of both. 

My mother is a very talented singer, and I’m very familiar with her voice. She grew up in Greenwich Village and sat in with people like Larry Rosen and Al Haig. She was in the scene as a jazz singer but stopped because she didn’t like the anxiety of performing. She has one album that I had produced, but she mostly stepped away from performing. But even if not performing, music has always been important to her. I knew she would sound cool on the album and didn’t think much more of it other than that I liked how she would sound.

Of course, in retrospect, it seems obvious to have my mother, who was 78 or 79 at the time of the recording, sing for a project. But it wasn’t until I was mixing the album that the connection seemed apparent to me.

As far as Joshua playing his father’s horn, that was not anything I planned. At all. It was funny because Joshua recorded the track and then didn’t tell me until later that he had done so on  Dewey’s sax. And, what’s more, that it was the first time he had recorded on it. It was just incredible and magical to have that be a part of this recording as well. 

Other little things come up here and there in the album. Jim Pugh and Walt Weiskopf are on “Nostalgia.” Walt lost his mother very early on in his life and Jim was adopted. I was aware that these two guys had logged miles and miles with Steely Dan and of their experiences with loved ones and the pain around it. We had talked about the project a little on tour and I asked them if they wanted to solo on the song. I didn’t tell them too much but did tell them the main themes of the project. It was like filmic casting to have them on this album. 

PG: You have performed with Steely Dan since 1996. What do you feel you have learned the most from that experience?

ML: I think, in a nutshell, what I have learned the most is that the more you relax and let it all go when making music, the better you will perform. The more you try to have a stranglehold over the process, the more likely you are to choke or not be in the moment. It is like a basketball player shooting a free throw; if he starts overthinking it, he’s dead in the water. 

As a trumpet player, I have to be constantly aware of whether I am in tune. I also have to play 99.8% of the notes correctly. There is a lot over which I could freak out. But Steely Dan has taught me to just go into some sort of Zen autopilot and not overthink. That’s the overarching lesson from working with the band. Working with Donald [Faigen] and the others in the band has been like a masterclass in how to make albums where you are musically in the moment. Some people would say that the recording process is all about getting a perfect fit but it’s not.  Perfection is not the point. Instead, the most important thing is that you follow your own North Star. That way, though it takes ridiculous patience, you don’t compromise your music.

PG: While your primary instrument is trumpet, you perform on several instruments on The Normyn Suites, including drums, bass, guitar, accordion, different types of organs, mellophonium, French horn, and trombone. Given you are working with an impressive group of other artists in the Orchestra, how do you determine which instrument you should be on at a particular time?

ML: At this point in my life, I know my strengths and weaknesses on each instrument. I try not to play an instrument just for the sake of playing it. What matters more is the feel and touch of the instrument’s sound. If I know I want something to sound a certain way, sometimes I will just play it to get the sound I seek. So, for instance, if I want a specific sound on the drums and it’s within my skills, I will just go ahead and play it. But if I want to play a groove a certain way outside of my ability, I will lean on people like Homer Steinweiss, Nick Movshon, or E.J. Stickland. And they will each approach it somewhat differently. 

It is like having a sports team and knowing each player’s skills. I try to have as powerful of a team as possible. With the Orchestra’s second album, Suite Extracts Vol.1 (Sunnyside, 2019), we were able to get everyone in the room to record. It was epic and incredible. But things were a little different with The Normyn Suites, mostly because of COVID.

The pandemic made it difficult to finish the recording. While I could set things up here or there, putting the album required much more creativity in piecing things together than the prior record. And to fill some of the holes that came in the process and where I felt comfortable doing the part, I filled it myself. But, at the same time, musicians like Kevin Raczka and Nick Movshon are experts at Afrobeat and could provide that sound in a way I never could on the drums. Very few people can play Afrobeat the way they do, especially now that Tony Allen is gone. 

PG:  Antibalas has a strong representation on the album. In addition to Raczka and Movshon, Jordan McLean, Eric Biondo, Jeff Pierce, Morgan Price, Cochemea Gastelum, Stuart Bogie, and Luke O’Malley are all on this album. They are each either current or former members of Antibalas. You also collaborated with that band on “Uptown Funk” and on the Broadway musical Fela!. What do you like most about working with that group?

ML: Well, those guys are like family. I just love them. I feel so close to them and their musical approach and love what they do. Antibalas is unapologetically focused on Afrobeat groove. They don’t obsess over trying to play perfectly in tune or a certain lick; it’s all about the groove. They love the music they love and are inspired by it. I think that’s great and have played with them a lot. Even just listening to Antibalas is a lesson in Afrobeat. 

PG: And, so, it seemed to be a natural choice to bring that aesthetic into “Shut Him Down”? 

ML: When it came to “Shut Him Down”, I think it was myself with Nick Movshon in the initial session. While Nick is mostly known for playing bass, his mind is equally brilliant on drums and he shows it on “Shut Him Down.” It was the groove between me on bass and him on drums that made the bedrock of that song. 

PG: One of the more interesting things about The Normyn Suites is how it deals with very serious emotions and thoughts but never gives up the groove.

ML: Yeah. 

PG: Do you see a connection between your use of groove on this album and some of your other projects like The Olympians (Daptone, 2016) where a smaller group constructs a groove?

ML: Man, you’re going for some real deep cuts here. [Laughing].

There is absolutely a connection between The Olympians and The Normyn Suites. The Olympians are on the third floor of a house built on Daptone Records and Truth and Soul Records.

Yes, the Olympians are in there, but I would go back further to Gabe Roth, Phillip Lehman, Leon Michaels and El Michels Affair, and Menahan Street Band. The groove, that drumming, on most of those albums is how I sound in my dreams. That kind of groove has always been very close to my heart. And when I need an emotional lift, I tend to go to music like the stuff Wu-Tang sampled, old Stax albums, and old soul recordings that give me goosebumps. That is my go-to for a groove. Also, music by Idris Muhammad and Lou Donaldson. Just crate digging. That’s what I lean on. 

When I was writing The Normyn Suites, to be honest, it was probably out of some insecurity that made me concerned that if it was completely morose and intellectual I may lose people. At the same time, I didn’t want to sell out by just adding a fast beat or something to it. But I thought there was an energy that I could tap into while enriching the album’s story by giving it more distinguishable peaks and valleys musically. A lot of old library stuff – British and French soundtracks or [Ennio] Morricone scores- have crazy and great grooves that also leave a lot of room for orchestral elements. You get a sense that there is not a lot of high-hat or ride. You have the pocket but there is a lot of space to add things. That was kind of my go-to and the idea I brought into the recording. 

“Denial”, the first part of the first suite, took its groove from Duke Ellington’s music from the late 60s or early 70s. Ellington was working with Rufus Jones at the time, who was playing all this great breakbeat stuff on the drums. That approach seemed to match what I was looking for in terms of a groove for the album. It was something I could write on top of and could hear working with the lyrical orchestral thing. It almost felt like a sample from an older recording. 

The difficult thing is getting the whole orchestra- fifteen to twenty people – to float on top of a two or three person group. I don’t get excited when orchestras just slog along and everyone’s trying to groove. To make it work there must be an insanely tight groove that stands on its own. And then you have to figure out how to best layer things on top of that groove. Gil Evans was a master at layering in this way. So was Duke [Ellington]. It’s tricky to do but, when it happens, it works wonderfully. It’s an amazing feeling. 

Continue the conversation with Michael Leonhart here.

The Michael Leonhart Orchestra’s The Normyn Suites will be available on March 25th on Sunnyside Records. It can be purchased on Bandcamp. Or, if you want to support PostGenre while buying the album, it is available in our Amazon Affiliate Store.

More information about Leonhart can be found on his website.

Photo Credit: Shervin Lame